Think your Sunday is going badly? Look at my barrel..

[El Spavo]

Firstly I really doubt any other company would have done different ... it is just the way it is. The Browning chokes are as said made by another firm but very importantly are of a better design in the first place. The other thing is that I would be willing to bet there will be more meat on the Browning movable choke design barrel after cutting to take the choke than will be on a fixed choke gun cut to go movable.

Mentioned it earlier, but my 525 flares out ever do slightly where the end of the choke thread must be inside the barrel. I would put money on this is so the walls stay the same thickness and therefore strength the full length whereas a fixed choke is made thinner to accommodate after market chokes. 

 

[tiptop]

What exactly do you mean by that? 

You done a video showing how clean the chokes are kept, and how clean everything was before they went back to Teague. Except the choke in the top barrel so we don't know really how clean the chokes were in the gun.

The very first picture of the chokes in the opening gambit. If you click on the picture and click to zoom in, the bottom choke looks, to me, that it is not fully in, seems to protrude a bit more than the top choke. 

I said in an earlier comment that you must have been shooting full/full?, as the picture of the dirty choke is the full choke, and in the top barrel. You said that was fitted the night before and was tightened in the car park, but it is the bottom barrel that has blown.

The 2 internal pictures in the report to me look like there is a gap between the choke and the seat.

I don't doubt that that you keep you gun clean and in top condition, and hope you have a good outcome with the insurance. It just seems to me there is some things don't quite ring true.

 

[Lloyd]

The examiners report reminds me of a situation I found myself in about 15 years ago. I was asked by an intermediary to write a report as an ‘expert witness’ for the FBI, looking into a case which became known as “the collar bomber”. 
The FBI wanted to determine how this collar may have been made and if possible by whom. A manufacturing company or a home made project. 
The assessment I made was a simple one, looking at small details such as welding quality, shapes of components, types of screws used and evidence of tool marks.

My conclusion (which ultimately proved accurate) was that the collar was a proprietary built device with some home made modifications. 
Now this was pretty much based on a hunch, given some years of experience in manufacturing both at industrial and at hobby level. 
 

In my view, the expert looking at Ant’s gun had to be objective unless of course they weren’t independent in which case there is naturally some bias. However, the implication of lack of due diligence on the gun owners part is questionable because it doesn’t go into detailed observations (or may have been omitted) about the manufacturing of the choke/barrel interface. 
What of the gas seal? What of the surface finish of the choke and barrel? What of the corner radii where there is a change in cross section at the choke seating?

The report seem to only focus on the owners care. It doesn’t appear to mention anything about the manufacturing.

For me, this omission and the overall lack of empathy with the customer would be and is a cause for concern. 

Therfoe wto answer the question asked previously if anyone would be put off buying from Teague in the future, my answer is yes, I most certainly am put off.

As an aside, “stainless steel” is often not very stainless. There are many grades of stainless steel. A surgical/catering  ferritic grade like  18/8 316L would be unlikely to corrode even if very wet. However add a bit of salt into the equation (from sweaty hands) and in confined spaces (interface between  choke and Barrel) could corrode for fun. 

Duplex or Austenitic stainless steels in these circumstances would fair much better.

Donwe know what grade stainless steel has been used? Not withstanding the barrels are likely made from a nitriding steel and would have much less resistance to oxidisation. 

 

[ColinD]

For a high tech company I can't understand how they have managed to take such crap photos of the inside of the barrel, we have a hand in one picture holding the barrel when someone takes a picture with, by the looks, their mobile phone from the monobloc

I would have thought they would have tried to take a picture with a borescope inspection camera to show that the choke was seated correctly in both barrels before even removing the top one, surely with the work they do they have this equipment

 

[antse7en]

You done a video showing how clean the chokes are kept, and how clean everything was before they went back to Teague. Except the choke in the top barrel so we don't know really how clean the chokes were in the gun.

The very first picture of the chokes in the opening gambit. If you click on the picture and click to zoom in, the bottom choke looks, to me, that it is not fully in, seems to protrude a bit more than the top choke. 

I said in an earlier comment that you must have been shooting full/full?, as the picture of the dirty choke is the full choke, and in the top barrel. You said that was fitted the night before and was tightened in the car park, but it is the bottom barrel that has blown.

The 2 internal pictures in the report to me look like there is a gap between the choke and the seat.

I don't doubt that that you keep you gun clean and in top condition, and hope you have a good outcome with the insurance. It just seems to me there is some things don't quite ring true.

Incredible.

I probably shouldn’t even waste my time responding to this but nonetheless.

Yes, you’re right.. silly me not thinking to remove the undamaged, seemingly irrelevant choke in the video - lacking the forward thinking to consider Teague would use it in an attempt to create a convenient narrative.

Next - the chokes were pristine the night before. That’s just a fact. Whether you believe that or not is your prerogative of which you are entitled. 

Your comment in terms of bottom choke not being fully seated - well. It is. Even in the photos uploaded that’s obvious. Happy to upload another 2-3 photos - just for you. 

And yes. Full and Full (a pair) were added the night before. I bought two.

And finally.. 

(Yes admittedly you have struck a chord with your utter nonsense)

I wasn’t going to mention this in the thread because I have great respect and didn’t think it was going to add anything but I was contacted this week by a 3rd party - 3rd party asked to be sent the report and I obliged. 3rd party wasn’t best pleased with the contents nor the handling, offering to have a conversation on my behalf. I refused, given I don’t expect it and frankly it’s not their problem.

Perhaps you’re just better informed @tiptop.

EDITED - Removed name upon reflection. Unfair to bring others into this conversation.

For a high tech company I can't understand how they have managed to take such crap photos of the inside of the barrel, we have a hand in one picture holding the barrel when someone takes a picture with, by the looks, their mobile phone from the monobloc

I would have thought they would have tried to take a picture with a borescope inspection camera to show that the choke was seated correctly in both barrels before even removing the top one, surely with the work they do they have this equipment

Agreed Colin.

I’ll be giving them a call tomorrow, and thanks to many of you on this thread I’ll be raising a number of substantiated queries and concerns. 

 

[tiptop]

Good luck in you quest.

 

[Freddypip]

Each of us can look at this and draw our own opinions. Tiptop - you are entitled to yours.

My issue with this is that Teague have not removed the choke from the failed barrel or provided any measurements of the failed barrel and the choke in the failed barrel. It maybe that it was not seated correctly - or as I have commented upon earlier that the treads did not allow it to be seated correctly, but without having examined, measured and photographed the actual barrel & choke our comments are uninformed guesswork at best.

Teague should not be guessing. They should have sought Ants authority to remove the choke and measured and photographed it. personally i would also have expected them to have cut the barrel off and provided close up photographs of the choke seated in the barrel and from measurements explained if it was loose to if it was defective. My concern is that they have not done this. They have stated the usual causes of such failures and assumed they apply in this case. Their investigation is very poor.

Colin also makes a very good point. i would have expected them to have a decent camera which could be stuck a few inches up the barrel of a gun - I appreciate this is a bit carry on shooting.

Can I put this question out there. If the gun was not quite to spec when it left Miroku how do Teague know they have done a good job. An engineer would say - too many 'tolerances' for my liking.

 

[jwpzx9r]

You done a video showing how clean the chokes are kept, and how clean everything was before they went back to Teague. Except the choke in the top barrel so we don't know really how clean the chokes were in the gun.

The very first picture of the chokes in the opening gambit. If you click on the picture and click to zoom in, the bottom choke looks, to me, that it is not fully in, seems to protrude a bit more than the top choke. 

I said in an earlier comment that you must have been shooting full/full?, as the picture of the dirty choke is the full choke, and in the top barrel. You said that was fitted the night before and was tightened in the car park, but it is the bottom barrel that has blown.

The 2 internal pictures in the report to me look like there is a gap between the choke and the seat.

I don't doubt that that you keep you gun clean and in top condition, and hope you have a good outcome with the insurance. It just seems to me there is some things don't quite ring true.

gambit noun [C] (CLEVER ACTION). a clever action in a game or other situation that is intended to achieve an advantage and usually involves taking a risk;

I am not sure why you chose this word in this context it is tacky to say the least.

I am not certain what you are trying to say here. It is obvious from the OP photograph that the chokes had been seated properly. You say you can see a gap between the outside of the barrel and the choke... if you can it is very very small and would not surprise me at as all the barrel has undergone a catastrophic failure the choke could well have moved as we see lead fragments forced up between the barrel and the choke tube threads.

 However notwithstanding that and for the hard of thinking if it is fully seated and there is still a very small gap it could be due to the threads on either the choke or the barrel being badly cut and the choke not fully seating even though fully tight. For whatever reason this has not been investigated... but hey we have a dirty choke in the top tube sure evidence of something... even though it has not failed.

 

[antse7en]

Lengthy question set delivered to Teague today - just wanted to say thanks for all the points raised on this forum. It's helped me construct my response and I'll continue to update on any developments. At this point it's principal, and hopefully I can at least generate some facts and learning from the experience. 

Cheers all.

 

[Mike]

Best of luck in finding out the reason why it all went wrong.

 

[timps]

I wasn’t going to post on this thread however here goes, I have worked as an expert witness working in a material testing laboratory for civil and even criminal claims for 36 years.

You have to remember that if a manufacturing defect develops after the first six months, the burden of proof that the product was faulty rests with the purchaser not the manufacturer, they are under no legal obligation to produce any report unless subject to any additional warranty they may provide above your statutory rights.

Bearing the above in mind the type and scope of report is standard operating procedure, certainly for construction defects. It is nothing more than a company seeing to be acting reasonably in the eyes of the court and to check for the scope of any potential liability they may have, i.e. some manufacturing defect that was glaringly obvious.

The cost of producing an independent report that would fully prove what actually happened could be quite expensive, if in a more detailed examination the failure jumps out straight away then great, if not the more tests and measurements add to the price of the report. No company is going to pay for that when there is potential they are not at fault and the product is over 6 months old & legally they don't have to.

The choke may not have been removed because it could cause further damage to barrel or damage the choke further thus destroying any evidence. It is standard procedure in the industry to get confirmation from the owner before doing any type of test that is or could be destructive.

Therefore, most companies will produce a simple and cheap report with a list of possible reasons other than manufacturing defects as to why the failure occurred. They will then pass it on to the customer hoping that it placates them, obviously if there are no other reasons they will repair the defect.

It is then up to the customer to prove his/her case that the manufacturer is at fault and not the other potential reasons.

From personal experience rather than professional I had an expensive Arai  motorcycle helmet that was sent to Arai  for evaluation. It came back with a similar type of report stating it was stone chip damage not a manufacturing defect. I sent a litigation standard report back proving a manufacturing defect. Result credit note to buy a new Arai helmet.

I had the same issue with Honda denying liability due to an engineer’s report on a VTR 1000 I got new replacement parts fitted.

I also got Apple to replace a cracked finger print sensor out of warranty. 

The trouble is the reports I produced would have been expensive, but I run the laboratory have the equipment to hand and it’s just my time. Most people would not bother to pay an independent expert to do it unless the claim was for a large amount or 100% sure of a manufacturing defect. You also have to consider that after paying for this report it could actually absolve the manufacturer or offer no clear-cut evidence of fault.

This is in no way any professional advice but if someone wanted to apply pressure then they could:-

Contact Teague and state you are un happy with the report using the reasons you or others have already given in this thread which you have already done.

Ask if they are willing to contribute to a joint independent expert or if they are found out to be at fault they pay, if they aren’t then you will pay.

If the above doesn’t get at least a good will gesture then write a letter before claim (easy to do and templates online) and state that you’ll start court proceedings if you don’t get a reply within (anything longer than 14 days) and you will get the court to appoint an independent expert and claim costs back if you win. You do not have to follow through with this letter and it only costs you a price of a stamp (do not email an LBC) but it does apply pressure.

Now before taking them to court or any legal action you must seek professional legal advice because anything I say on an internet forum is worth exactly what you paid for it.

But unfortunately, legally it is up to you to prove the fault after six months and some companies need to see that you are serious before they will do anything about it.

Just my ramblings and in no way any professional advice or taking sides as I have no idea if it is a manufacturing defect or not hence the strength of your case.

 

[antse7en]

Keen to know thoughts please.

Message received from Westley Richards & Co as follows:





Dear Anthony,
 
I'm from Westley Richards & Co. in Birmingham, Teague is a subsidiary of ours. Ivan has forwarded me your email to review as I'm always keen to hear when we have customer complaints. I'm not going to answer your questions point by point at this time but what I will say is the way Teague machine barrels and produce chokes is extremely thorough to a high degree of tolerance, and every barrel and choke goes through robust quality checking including the use of gauges so they are all machined/produced to the same standard. 
 
That being said, I would also like to know if there is an issue with the manufacturing so what I'll suggest, if you agree, is that I'll have the gun brought up to us in Birmingham next week and a gunmaker will inspect it with a bore cam to show how the choke is seated, as well as checking diameters and tolerances of the choke and bore. We can then discuss the findings. 
 
Please reply if you're happy for me to proceed this way.





Is this something I consent to immediately? Unsure whether there’s anything I should do prior - though nothing which immediately comes to mind. 

Thanks all.

 

[timps]

To be fair it is a very reasonable offer, the only observation I would make is do you trust the gunmakers independence and competence. Not that I’m casting aspersions on him but when I do independent testing and the results don’t go the way some people expect they then question my independence, which was never in doubt until after the tests didn't got their way. Therefore you have to be in a mindset to accept the findings no matter what they may be. 

Normally I would suggest asking if you could observe the inspection however with COVID that probably will not be an option.

Just ask them if they can document as much as they can with photographs or video so you can remote view the testing procedure.

 

[antse7en]

To be fair it is a very reasonable offer, the only observation I would make is do you trust the gunmakers independence and competence. Not that I’m casting aspersions on him but when I do independent testing and the results don’t go the way some people expect they then question my independence, which was never in doubt until after the tests didn't got their way. Therefore you have to be in a mindset to accept the finings no matter what they may be. 

Normally I would suggest asking if you could observe the inspection however with COVID that probably will not be an option.

Just ask them if they can document as much as they can with photographs or video so you can remote view the testing procedure.

Thanks Timps.

Agree - pretty much what I had in mind. 

 

[jwpzx9r]

Having really looked closely at the photographs of the damaged choke I really do think that it will be difficult to tell from looking at the choke barrel interface if there is a gap whether it is because the choke was not screwed fully up or has moved due to the violent way the wad has forced lead shot between the barrel and the choke tube. Also is that a small crack I see in the barrel right at the end where it meets the choke tube or a scratch? I am talking about the photo where the top choke is half way out.

One final thing looking at that photo we see a tiny gap that must be equivalent to much less than a quarter of a turn looking at the pitch of the thread on that top choke but that very tiny gap may not be because it was not tight in the first place.

I am absolutely being honest when I say this . If I could not be confident of my gun being able to withstand that degree of error I would never ever shoot a gun with a movable choke. I have shot my Browning ultra XTR many times when I have had to give it a right good turn in to tighten it and never had an issue and as stated earlier I shoot with a guy who tightens his DT10 chokes when he remembers to or someone tells him they are loose

So you are being offered an inspection by the parent company... where is the independence?

 

[b725black]

I have followed this thread with interest, I own up to the fact that since purchasing my DT11 the 1/4 & 1/4 chokes have only been finger tightened when I remembered, sometimes needing over a full turn to return to finger tight.  no barrel bulging here.

I would take the offer from Westley Richards with Timps caveat

Not a strong one for cleaning my guns as long as they are dry, after all the barrels are whatever they are and will have a film of oil from last time, come 25.10.20 cabinet opened, DT11 out and cleaned, chokes out and cleaned, put back, tightened with the key and now, when I remember, will be checked for tightness with the key whilst between stands.

The chokes on my other multi choked guns have now also been checked tight with the key,

(the b725 was still tight when checked ) 

 

[Freddypip]

Ant.

Yes - I would let them investigate further. All they are asking to do is to look in further detail as I would have expected them to have done in the first place.

Regarding the barrel - I would accept that it is history and of little value to you. I would let them cut it up for the purposes of the investigation. The forend wood & iron, ejectors etc can all be salvaged and returned to you.

I would look for a replacement either for your own use or to enable you to sell the gun on. If you are going to sell the gun on your options over the barrel length might be greater (30 or 32 inch). I'm not sure where you are located but I would contact the local shops and gunsmiths to see what they have.

As we have discussed the Teague chokes should have value and Teague may take them back. It maybe worthwhile asking Teague if they have any replacement barrels or a source for them; I would surprised if they couldn't point you in the right direction.

 

[antse7en]

Hi all,

Response received today from Westley Richards - effectively closing the matter. 

PDF attached.

 

[ColinD]

So 0.3 of a safety step, is that through the whole diameter of the barrel, enough to make me think twice before having a fixed choke changed to a multi imho

 

[Guest]

So will you be getting a quote for replacement barrels ?