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PeeJay That's great! So, I have another question. If you did what I suggested there (bottom of page 9) did the targets break? And if they did (by closing your off eye), did your consistency deteriorate when you then tried to repeat with both eyes open?
 
Here's my ten pennorth - It's probably fair to say that most people started pretty much the way you are and quite a few without lessons at all, perhaps just going with a mate who has done it a few more times than you.
Initially the concept of shooting to miss in front is quite daunting so beginners often miss behind. Once you have got over that hurdle and can give your targets some proper lead then it's a question of how much and I'm still asking myself that question 55 years later.
Mr. Digweed is credited with saying "If you miss it once, double the lead. If you miss it twice, shoot right at it." I tend to agree with the principle at least because it gets you thinking for yourself. There's one thing is for certain and that is, if you keep doing the same thing don't expect a different result?
Starting on easy targets and working up is not a bad way of going about things because you'll have a point of reference on the easy kills, but you should be stretching yourself too.
Of course keep practising and try to build all the good advice into your style so it becomes second nature - footwork, pickup point, kill point etc.
 
bordergun said:
PeeJay That's great! So, I have another question. If you did what I suggested there (bottom of page 9) did the targets break? And if they did (by closing your off eye), did your consistency deteriorate when you then tried to repeat with both eyes open?
Click to expand...
I’m reading it in the comfort of my friends house, so I’ll try it the next time we’re out. 👍
 
PeeJay said:
I’m definitely going to focus on the basics and getting the process right. We normally do 75-100 each per visit. Is it best to focus on easy ones, and be getting 90%, before moving on. Or should we throw in some harder ones? The course doesn’t have a map of the stands or the difficulty, so we just walk around and pick a few.
Click to expand...

Shooting a mix of targets is good, but if you're struggling with 30 yard crossers, I wouldn't bother shooting any 70 yard crossers they've got until you've got the closer ones under your belt.
 
Good deal! Please don't believe what some will tell you that you must shoot a shotgun with both eyes open because (depending on the degree of dominance) some of us can't do that. A good example is a very famous lady shooter here in the US who was told that for years, but she now wears an ocluder. She is now a multi gold medal Olympic Champion. There are many champion SC shooters that close an eye..........but not all of them will tell you that!

And if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask, I will help if I can. Good Luck!
 
bordergun said:
Good deal! Please don't believe what some will tell you that you must shoot a shotgun with both eyes open because (depending on the degree of dominance) some of us can't do that. A good example is a very famous lady shooter (and a super nice lady) here in the US who was told that for years, but she now wears an ocluder. She is now a multi gold medal Olympic Champion. There are many champion SC shooters that close an eye..........but not all of them will tell you that!

And if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask, I will help if I can. Good Luck!
Click to expand...
 
MartynB said:
Before you even look at lead , hold points , kill points etc , you have to have a good stance and a good gun mount to deliver . Once you have satisfied a good instructor ( note good instructor ) that you have this right , the good thing is that you can practice that at home at zero cost until it’s second nature . Until you have a consistent gun mount the rest is a lottery .

You also have to set yourself a realistic goal of the outcome for the level of time effort and cash you want to put into shooting .
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Well you’ve summed that up about perfectly, basically once you’ve sorted your gun fit and mount it’s down to how much coaching and correct practice you can afford, assuming you have a modicum of skill 🤣
 
Martinj said:
Here's my ten pennorth - It's probably fair to say that most people started pretty much the way you are and quite a few without lessons at all, perhaps just going with a mate who has done it a few more times than you.
Initially the concept of shooting to miss in front is quite daunting so beginners often miss behind. Once you have got over that hurdle and can give your targets some proper lead then it's a question of how much and I'm still asking myself that question 55 years later.
Mr. Digweed is credited with saying "If you miss it once, double the lead. If you miss it twice, shoot right at it." I tend to agree with the principle at least because it gets you thinking for yourself. There's one thing is for certain and that is, if you keep doing the same thing don't expect a different result?
Starting on easy targets and working up is not a bad way of going about things because you'll have a point of reference on the easy kills, but you should be stretching yourself too.
Of course keep practising and try to build all the good advice into your style so it becomes second nature - footwork, pickup point, kill point etc.
Click to expand...
I hadn’t heard the Digweed advice but it is very good I think we are probably all guilty of going into a stand and doing that same thing 3 times over expecting a different result. Obviously in the heat of the moment it doesn’t necessarily click to change up the specifics of what you are doing but if it didn’t work the first time try something different 👍🏼 thanks for sharing that I can’t wait to say it to people on Sunday 😂
 
bordergun said:
Good deal! Please don't believe what some will tell you that you must shoot a shotgun with both eyes open because (depending on the degree of dominance) some of us can't do that. A good example is a very famous lady shooter here in the US who was told that for years, but she now wears an ocluder. She is now a multi gold medal Olympic Champion. There are many champion SC shooters that close an eye..........but not all of them will tell you that!

And if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask, I will help if I can. Good Luck!
Click to expand...
That’s true regarding the need to have two eyes open. I see a pair of barrels ! my brain uses the correct one for the eye I use but the amount of effort required to convince myself that’s it’s ok isn’t worth the marginal gain in being able to see more sky. So I’m of the both eyes open, hold point, move the gun with the bird, squint, lead and shoot and miss brigade 😂
 
Peejay.

My comments on the original question will match many above - particularly Jonny English - get some lessons from a decent coach and take their advice.

The initial few months is a rapid learning curve. Much changes, including mount, gun fit, the clays you see, muscle memory and control, experience and confidence. A decent coach will be able to advise you on what to work on next and what exercises can be done at home to improve that - for example if the coach has your mount right then it can be practiced - if not practicing it too early may result in a bad habit which is hard to kick. The same is true of technique and what works best for you - this is where you might prefer a different coaching style so talk that through with your coach to make sure you have the right one (Donna is spot on here).

I spent too much time reading books when I set out. I though they would save me the coaching costs. They are useful but I agree with the comments above - thinking about it and putting lead down the gun are not the same, and often what we think we do is not what we do, so it is easy to get into our own bad habits which a coach has to then iron out. Having a few lessons early sets the foundations. Watching videos can be helpful but a coach will confirm if that technique (process) is right for you and ensure you are doing it right and not creating a problem.

Johnny is also right on one key point - Better kit might make a difference but it's largely placebo. To that I would add there are certain things which once fixed - are fixed and best forgotton - and this includes eye dominance - Bordergun is right to raise it but any decent coach will answer that question for you and/or recommend you see an optician if the standard tests don't work. If however your eye dominance is an issue, it has to be fixed and there no point jumping in both feet until it is.

With hindsight I would have much preferred to have saved a £1,000 on buying a cheaper gun and spent that on 10 or so lessons over the first year or so. At the end of that year you will be in a different place.
 
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Freddypip Sorry, but I disagree with some of your comments, especially the eye dominance part. Please let me explain if I may?

Because dominance is neurological, neither most optometrists and many coaches can't diagnose a dominance problem 100% conclusively. That's why I suggested in the Reading Targets book, quote:- "I always advise shooters to initially see the correct bird/barrel relationship they need to apply to break the target with the "off" eye (ie the eye that is NOT above the rib) closed. This is to make sure that that the correct bird/barrel relationship is established by the eye above the rib. "

By doing that, if the target is consistently broken, but the shooter can't repeat that with both eyes open, there's your answer. Simple really, because only the guy that triggers the shot knows what he sees and I have students that have struggled for years because they are told "two eyes are always better." If they know how much lead the target needs, some see massive improvement by closing an eye.

There is an interesting article that explains this in more detail in a book:- SSSRD and the Cortex Eye by John F Price.
 
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Here is my ten pence worth !
Do NOT dismiss the skeet range. There is no need to shoot skeet to the rules, far from it in fact. Start off at the high house, just shooting the high house birds. Once you can hit that, move to stand 2, keep on with the high bird, moving to stand 3 then 4 and so on. If you struggle with a particular target, do not be afraid to go back a stand, or even half way between 2 stands. When you are happy with that, repeat the process starting at the low house, stand 7, taking just low birds. Once you are hitting the singles, THEN you can learn the rules for skeet and how it should be shot.
Also practice your gun mounting at home, preferably using a mirror. It pays to practice at home for around 5 minutes a day, this also helps build the muscles you use for shooting.
Once you can hit the skeet targets with some regularity, you can apply that learning to sporting targets. Hopefully you will have grasped the principles of 'lead' and how to apply them. IF you are still struggling, then find a good Instructor to help, get him/her to check your gunfit too.
 
Yorkshire Clay Shooting identifies one of the main problems that many shooters experience by shooting both eyes open. As he looks at the target, he sees two barrels in his peripheral vision. The fortunate ones amongst us that have very strong, conclusive dominance will only see one barrel, that's why they can usually keep both eyes open. But for many of us, that isn't the case. That why I suggested the temporary fix in the post above.
 
With the caveat that I'm completely new to shooting and still waiting on a certificate.

If the general consensus is that two eyes is better why would you not try to learn that from the start? You say you recommend they start with one eye, then if they open both and they miss they need to relearn what they're seeing/the appropriate sight picture for two eyed shooting do they not? If not are you saying just to stick with one eye?

Zach Kienbaum says that he sees two barrels and he's done pretty well. Says in the below that for a right hand/right eye you need you learn to use the image on the left.

 
eightlittlebits. Because regardless of what some will tell you, you can't count or change optic nerve neurological "hook-ups" to your brain, nobody can. And the eye above the rib must be the one we rely on for the correct bird/barrel relationship. If it isn't, the sight picture, bird/barrel relationship that you rely on to successfully intercept the target will come from the "off" eye instead of the eye above the rib and won't work. That's why some top shooters wear a tiny ocluder on their left lens even though they "test" right eye dominanant. But, please don't take my word for it. Please read what Ed Solomons says about this. He's also done pretty well.
 
eightlittlebits I watched the Youtube clip, thank you for including that. Interestingly, years ago nobody was talking about seeing a confusing "ghost" image of two barrels in their peripheral vision. There is an article about this on my web. site here:- www.peteblakeley.com

On the lessons drop down at the top please click on One Eye or Two. That article appeared 24 years ago in 2000 for Sportingclays magazine. I wrote the article because at that time I knew the leading authority on the subject of eye dominance (Worldwide) professor emeritus Dr. Peter O Behan who was the head of neurology at Glasgow University in Scotland. Peter unfortunately has since passed but his outstanding articles on eye dominance can still be found on the Internet. Good luck with the shotgunning!
 
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Can I just clarify here.......how much shooting have you done ? I am currently Instructing a couple of people (1 being my Grandson). They have had several lessons, my Grandson has been shooting for a few years but due to his education (academic variety)getting in the way, he has not done a lot of shooting. These guys are still shooting 'gun up'. My view being, until they can hit targets with a reasonable degree of success, WHY introduce shooting gun down and further complicate the issue ? Once I feel they are ready to shoot with the gun out of their shoulder, it will be on a 'dustbin lid' of a target, that comes in towards them, stalling at about 25 yards out. This will give them plenty of time to mount and shoot, thus avoiding the rush of gun to shoulder and making a hash of things, possibly not mounting the gun correctly and getting hurt into the bargain. English Sporting rules allow the gun to be pre mounted.........use them !
I have concentrated more on 'hold point' and 'kill point' and it seems to be working. My Grandson is now shooting in high 50' to mid 60's ex 100. He is happy with that and so am I.......for now.
 
westley said:
Can I just clarify here.......how much shooting have you done ? I am currently Instructing a couple of people (1 being my Grandson). They have had several lessons, my Grandson has been shooting for a few years but due to his education (academic variety)getting in the way, he has not done a lot of shooting. These guys are still shooting 'gun up'. My view being, until they can hit targets with a reasonable degree of success, WHY introduce shooting gun down and further complicate the issue ? Once I feel they are ready to shoot with the gun out of their shoulder, it will be on a 'dustbin lid' of a target, that comes in towards them, stalling at about 25 yards out. This will give them plenty of time to mount and shoot, thus avoiding the rush of gun to shoulder and making a hash of things, possibly not mounting the gun correctly and getting hurt into the bargain. English Sporting rules allow the gun to be pre mounted.........use them !
I have concentrated more on 'hold point' and 'kill point' and it seems to be working. My Grandson is now shooting in high 50' to mid 60's ex 100. He is happy with that and so am I.......for now.
Click to expand...
Spot on. Having a pre mounted gun on some targets is a distinct advantage. Why anybody would teach gun down from the start is beyond me. It's virtually impossible to learn everything at once. A newbie will not have a consistent mount, or possibly a well enough fitting gun to shoot gun down from the start.
 
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