How to get better?

Daz W 100% correct. I have been a full time professional coach for over 45 years and I always insist that a new shooter pre-mounts for the reasons you suggest. I also always insist that they close the off eye initially to make sure they see the correct sight picture. And I always teach lead....... just like the the Italian Olympic coaches do.

eightlittlebits said:

With the caveat that I'm completely new to shooting and still waiting on a certificate.

If the general consensus is that two eyes is better why would you not try to learn that from the start? You say you recommend they start with one eye, then if they open both and they miss they need to relearn what they're seeing/the appropriate sight picture for two eyed shooting do they not? If not are you saying just to stick with one eye?

Zach Kienbaum says that he sees two barrels and he's done pretty well. Says in the below that for a right hand/right eye you need you learn to use the image on the left.

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Nearly all of us see 2 barrels when we are focused on the clay, and nearly all of us learn to shoot 2 eyes open, unless it there is an eye dominance issue.

Have a read of this article by Ed Lyons: https://www.ed-lyons.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/CTN0321_FC_Visual-Performance.pdf

"When someone with normal vision focuses on an object, everything in front of the object appears double, and everything behind the object appears double. This is suppressed in everyday life but often reported by the shooter as “seeing two barrels” when staring at a clay. Currently there appears to be a trend for sellers of “eye dominance correction” items to incorrectly suggest this in itself indicates an eye dominance problem, which it categorically does not"

Daz W Correct. And I agree that most learn to shoot with both eyes open because as eigthlittlebits said in the earlier post, that is "accepted as the norm". But, if you can teach lead, and once the shooter knows the lead and he he can repeatedly break the target, why would he then risk missing by trying the same with both eyes open? The best way is to keep both eyes open initially to retain peripheral, binocular and stereopsis, then close the off eye just before the shot is taken to make sure the correct lead is identified with the eye above the rib.

The problem is identifying the eye dominance issue conclusively and because it is neurological, that isn't easy. Over many years, many eye dominance "correctors" have been peddled. I tried one of the most recent devices on two of my skeet shooters that very rarely drop a target in either 12g, 20g, 28 or .410 events. They didn't work for them. Because of the regularity of the targets, it is always easier to identify a problem in skeet easier than it is in SC where the targets are more variable.

But for competitive shotgunning, the only 100% positive way to stop the off eye kicking in is to close or oclude it. That's why Kim Rhode wears one after struggling for years with two eyes open.

chippy said:

Start at skeet, with fixed targets you will soon learn the basics of lead and when your hitting over 20 every time move on to sporting.

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That sounds really obvious now you’ve said it. We’ll have a think about that one. We haven’t done any Skeet yet and don’t really know the club rules or requirements around it. In fact we don’t even really know what it is

PeeJay If you private e mail me here:- www.peteblakeley.com I will e mail you some specific, easy to follow instructions for skeet that will have you breaking every target on a skeet field very quickly. Please just click on the Contact Pete box in the top right corner. You can then apply everything you learn on the skeet field to Sporting Clays. Eightlittlebits, you may also be interested? I'm more than happy to help if I can.

westley said:

Can I just clarify here.......how much shooting have you done ? I am currently Instructing a couple of people (1 being my Grandson). They have had several lessons, my Grandson has been shooting for a few years but due to his education (academic variety)getting in the way, he has not done a lot of shooting. These guys are still shooting 'gun up'. My view being, until they can hit targets with a reasonable degree of success, WHY introduce shooting gun down and further complicate the issue ? Once I feel they are ready to shoot with the gun out of their shoulder, it will be on a 'dustbin lid' of a target, that comes in towards them, stalling at about 25 yards out. This will give them plenty of time to mount and shoot, thus avoiding the rush of gun to shoulder and making a hash of things, possibly not mounting the gun correctly and getting hurt into the bargain. English Sporting rules allow the gun to be pre mounted.........use them !
I have concentrated more on 'hold point' and 'kill point' and it seems to be working. My Grandson is now shooting in high 50' to mid 60's ex 100. He is happy with that and so am I.......for now.

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My shooting history is I was bought an experience day as a gift. Enjoyed it.

So I then started going for ‘lessons’, 50 clays a time, with a mate. Had about 6-8 lessons. Then bought a gun (he’s just about to get his). Now we go and shoot for ourselves, although we’re not against more lessons.

Like many, life gets in the way. I can only go about once a month, maybe 3 weeks. I don’t have the gun at home, it’s stored at the club.

One of my original problems was looking at the barrel and bead like a rifle. I did a little work on gun down to make me focus on the clay, which worked, so I’m now back at mounting the gun most of the time.

The information on here has been really helpful so far.

bordergun said:

PeeJay If you private e mail me here:- www.peteblakeley.com I will e mail you some specific, easy to follow instructions for skeet that will have you breaking every target on a skeet field very quickly. Please just click on the Contact Pete box in the top right corner. You can then apply everything you learn on the skeet field to Sporting Clays. Eightlittlebits, you may also be interested? I'm more than happy to help if I can.

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I’m very fortunate that you sent me the skeet notes when I was originally asking about your two books. We were talking about them the other day, and we will be asking someone to show us the ropes in the skeet area, so that we can practice from your notes.

We normally shot 75-100 in a session. Would you recommend we do all of this on the skeet stand?

PeeJay Yes. At your level, you will want to build up a repertoire/library of sight pictures that you know to be correct. Please follow the instructions and shoot 4 on each station before you move to the next. If you miss one target, start again until you can break 4 in a row to imprint the bird/barrel relationship you need on that station.

On a skeet field, the low house target #1 will be coming in at a narrow angle (approx 15 degrees) to your shooting position over the center stake. That is a one unit lead. By using the clock face analogy, that target will be coming in at 12 o'clock to 7 o'clock. On a SC course that same one unit will work at that same angle at 20 yards, 30 yards, 40 yards, 50 yards and 60 yards, either coming in or outgoing.

Of course, I understand from experience over the years that many won't believe that so if your club will allow it, you may like to try this?

Shoot that narrow angle target over the center stake with a one unit lead. Then, shoot that same target coming in at the same angle from the adjacent skeet field. That target will now be 60 yards away and you will find that (because of something called parallax), at the muzzle, that same one unit of lead will work.

Edited a couple of times to try to make it as concise as possible for readers. But I will always answer your questions when possible.

PeeJay said:

That sounds really obvious now you’ve said it. We’ll have a think about that one. We haven’t done any Skeet yet and don’t really know the club rules or requirements around it. In fact we don’t even really know what it is

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YouTube is your saviour !

I went out today for the first time with my own gun having just received my certificate. I can 100% relate to the op. When I miss I don't understand why. In my head (as I was pulling the trigger) I was convinced it would be a hit. It's not having the feedback that leaves me frustrated. Today I probably hit 30%. When I had a lesson I was easily over 60% as he was telling me where to shoot. I guess this is the learning curve.... Obtaining a memory bank of how to shoot different targets.
Incomers and going away are my favourite. Loppers are created by the devil

As for eye dominance I have been told I am close to neutral. From the start I have shot with a tiny dot on my glasses that works great and gives me a great sight picture and completely eliminates ghost barrels. I do catch myself closing the off eye from time to time but that's an ingrained habit from my military days

Dave 3 What you say about the tiny dot is absolutely spot on! (Please excuse the "spot on" pun!) It is exactly what some of the top shooters do, both skeet and SC. Unfortunately, some of the Internet "fantasy peddlers" will try to tell you differently. And I can give you an absolutely cast iron, foolproof way to crush loopers if you e mail me.

bordergun said:

Dave 3 What you say about the tiny dot is absolutely spot on! (Please excuse the "spot on" pun!) It is exactly what some of the top shooters do, both skeet and SC. Unfortunately, some of the Internet "fantasy peddlers" will try to tell you differently. And I can give you an absolutely cast iron, foolproof way to crush loopers if you e mail me.

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Is that the box/rectangle lead, used with the unit system from your book? Or is it something different please.

Dave_3 said:

I went out today for the first time with my own gun having just received my certificate. I can 100% relate to the op. When I miss I don't understand why. In my head (as I was pulling the trigger) I was convinced it would be a hit. It's not having the feedback that leaves me frustrated. Today I probably hit 30%. When I had a lesson I was easily over 60% as he was telling me where to shoot. I guess this is the learning curve.... Obtaining a memory bank of how to shoot different targets.
Incomers and going away are my favourite. Loppers are created by the devil

As for eye dominance I have been told I am close to neutral. From the start I have shot with a tiny dot on my glasses that works great and gives me a great sight picture and completely eliminates ghost barrels. I do catch myself closing the off eye from time to time but that's an ingrained habit from my military days

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I feel your pain (hence my original post). With the instructor I’m better, because he’s looking over my shoulder and saying “you’re doing this”. Then I go on a visit, miss and think “I wonder what I did wrong”

I was thinking today that it’s probably unique. When you’re learning and miss at snooker, golf etc you know that it went left, or right, too high, too low, too hard, too soft etc. But with clays you miss and think “why”.

The comments on here have really helped so we’re putting them into practice on our next visit.

P.S. my favourite is a straight up ‘teal’ from about 15 metres. 9/10, which is why I like it

Peejay Correct, it is the box system. That's another reason why it makes sense to start on a skeet field because the size of the box varies as the distance to the target varies. If you can't judge range reasonably well, you will stuggle. The distance to the center stake on a skeet field is 21 yards and the distance between the two houses is 42 yards. A few sessions on a skeet field will teach you how to make a pretty good stab at the approximate range of the target in the area you intend to shoot it. That's the important part. The greater the range, the bigger you need to make the box.

And I always give credit where it is due, I got the box method from the great man himself, Mr. Digweed many years ago at Lains Shooting Ground. I just "enhanced" it to show shooters how big to make the box at the specific ranges.

If your goal is too short sporting the worst possible thing u can do is get yourself on a skeet field. Also listening to internet experts with no proven track record will also put u in a hole.

Do some research find a professional coach who’s still relevant and follow their advice or you tube videos.

Also inboxed you

I hear you Ben. I'm sure many shooters would progress very quickly if they took a number of lessons with such a distinguished coach as yourself. You are of course, the best coach in the World.

Having said that, (according to the e mails I get) many shooters are very happy with their progress after buying both my books. Good luck with your future endeavors.

Please. Don't start over again.

Practicing on a skeet field is good practice for all shooting disciplines. I'm sorry you have to filter through so many
opinions from fellow shooters as your find your way to higher scores. Enjoy the journey to better scores. Don't miss a target the same way twice. Do something different till you find it. You will find your style and improve your success and have fun breaking targets.

Bavarian said:

Please. Don't start over again.

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Too late. He can't help himself.

Bavarian said:

Please. Don't start over again.

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This 100%. I am also a relatively newcomer to the sport and would love to learn more about the subject with a view to taking that advice away to the practise ground, but when those that I aspire towards just keep taking chunks out of each other it minds to to look elsewhere….such a shame.