it does go on .. fact ! Ive been at plenty of shooting grounds and this has openly been the topic of conversation .. those involved have no intention of ever shooting for country etc (prob due to age) and quite often shoot 'targets only' at reg shoots for practice then enter the ones they hope to cash in on (usually bigger monies) .. but how often an individual pulls it off has yet to be seen.
Baggers...How, Why, When? Truth or Fiction?
- Thread starter radrac
- Start date
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Sandbagging? everyone seems to be convinced there are a number of shooters out there particularly in C class who manipulate the system, I have consistnetly been in C class for a number of years until this new session when i limped into B.
The effort required to manipulate your scores to make sure you enter a major with an advantageous class and the chances of one beating all the progressive shooters in that class on the day coupled with the pointlessness of competing in such a fashion convinves me thta this so called practice is a minor issue if an issue at all.
In my years languishing in C class I have often wonderd at some of the scores returned by certain shooters on given days and thought they must be sandbagging, however upon research into their CPSA profile and scoring record 99% of the time I have found genuine reasons for their above average scores.
i think like any sport there are a few who will try to gain advantage by manipulating the rules or the way things are set up, they are only cheating themsleves in the end as any victories they might gain would be at best pyrrhic.
The effort required to manipulate your scores to make sure you enter a major with an advantageous class and the chances of one beating all the progressive shooters in that class on the day coupled with the pointlessness of competing in such a fashion convinves me thta this so called practice is a minor issue if an issue at all.
In my years languishing in C class I have often wonderd at some of the scores returned by certain shooters on given days and thought they must be sandbagging, however upon research into their CPSA profile and scoring record 99% of the time I have found genuine reasons for their above average scores.
i think like any sport there are a few who will try to gain advantage by manipulating the rules or the way things are set up, they are only cheating themsleves in the end as any victories they might gain would be at best pyrrhic.
I believe it goes on for those on the cusp of a class, an A class shooter who might scrape into AA or a C into B just throws a shoot to stay near the top of one class rather than the bottom of another. I can also accept that people don’t hand their cards in, but these are hardly likely to be AA standard shooters languishing in C more like bottom to mid level B staying in C.
The problem I see with the it’s widespread theory is why don’t we get several sandbaggers all up in the high scores at the major shoots (it’s the only place they will make money) instead it’s usually just one. Also if the same shooter won C class every year with an AA score surely the organisers would pick up on this.
For the normal registered shoots it’s not really worth it, I have won plenty and not even made back the entry fee, if I then had to turn up to another shoot and miss just to get my average down I would cry and be well out of pocket.
Kegworth had a guaranteed £200 in each class (split), but factor in £35 entry, £25 in cartridges £20 travel and now an 83 lodged with the CPSA .So the shooter would have to shoot another shoot and miss on purpose, it’s not much fun paying another £35 entry, £25 in cartridges £20 travel to miss on purpose just to stay in C class. So even with a good payout like Kegworth you still lose money especially if another shooter got an 84 on the day.
For myself I was in A and dropped back down to B, I was average for the first part back in B class then got my act together and won a few shoots with A and AA class scores. It would look like classic sandbagger but in reality the drop was a mixture of work, personal reasons and genuine incompetence.
The problem I see with the it’s widespread theory is why don’t we get several sandbaggers all up in the high scores at the major shoots (it’s the only place they will make money) instead it’s usually just one. Also if the same shooter won C class every year with an AA score surely the organisers would pick up on this.
For the normal registered shoots it’s not really worth it, I have won plenty and not even made back the entry fee, if I then had to turn up to another shoot and miss just to get my average down I would cry and be well out of pocket.
Kegworth had a guaranteed £200 in each class (split), but factor in £35 entry, £25 in cartridges £20 travel and now an 83 lodged with the CPSA .So the shooter would have to shoot another shoot and miss on purpose, it’s not much fun paying another £35 entry, £25 in cartridges £20 travel to miss on purpose just to stay in C class. So even with a good payout like Kegworth you still lose money especially if another shooter got an 84 on the day.
For myself I was in A and dropped back down to B, I was average for the first part back in B class then got my act together and won a few shoots with A and AA class scores. It would look like classic sandbagger but in reality the drop was a mixture of work, personal reasons and genuine incompetence.
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Steve Lovatt
Well-known member
Zero scores are picked up on by cpsa and I believe dealt with - a supposed ban for continual offenders.
Ally
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radrac
Well-known member
Dick Arbon
Well-known member
Assuming nobody objects too strongly to people being in a higher class than they merit (to fuel an ego maybe!) Why not set a default of 100/100 for cards not handed in.
Failing that scores could be lifted from the master score card, but that would be a lot more hassle.
Failing that scores could be lifted from the master score card, but that would be a lot more hassle.
I doubt that my friend. The only person she would fall out with would be the shooter himself. This is the required action if cards are not handed in.i was at a ground ( nameless) when a well known and very good shooter did not hand in(nameless). the booking in lady took it upon herself to submit this score from the master card and recieved a telling off from HQ
tiptop
Well-known member
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- Feb 3, 2012
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Obviously shot that sh*te was to embarassed to hand it in,and didn't want the score's on the door's for people to see.i was at a ground ( nameless) when a well known and very good shooter did not hand in(nameless). the booking in lady took it upon herself to submit this score from the master card and recieved a telling off from HQ
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wylye
the required action is to report the shooter. which any sane ground owner will not do. then cpsa will request the score from the master.and then issue a warning. if the action is repeated, a 3 month ban is issued, followed closely by a year ban. its called procedure. correct procedure not followed= telling off. and yes the shooter was not happy. sponsored you see and AAA so a 75 did not look good on his CV. and did not get warned off either. (suprise)
the required action is to report the shooter. which any sane ground owner will not do. then cpsa will request the score from the master.and then issue a warning. if the action is repeated, a 3 month ban is issued, followed closely by a year ban. its called procedure. correct procedure not followed= telling off. and yes the shooter was not happy. sponsored you see and AAA so a 75 did not look good on his CV. and did not get warned off either. (suprise)
I can well believe a sponsored AAA shooter wanting to bury a poor score but the CPSA cannot issue any sort of telling off if the score is retrieved from a master sheet as this is the whole point of the master sheet in the first place. Besides a 75 would get binned as below threshold in any case.i was at a ground ( nameless) when a well known and very good shooter did not hand in(nameless). the booking in lady took it upon herself to submit this score from the master card and recieved a telling off from HQ
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C
Chris B
Guest
How would they know it had been raised of the master sheet , as the cards themselves are not forwarded to the cpsa.i was at a ground ( nameless) when a well known and very good shooter did not hand in(nameless). the booking in lady took it upon herself to submit this score from the master card and recieved a telling off from HQ
I don't think so. During conversations and emails regarding cards not being handed in we are asked if we can supply the score from master sheets which we obviously can do. The alternative is to remove the offending shooter from the list of entrants on the computer and pretend he was never there before the scores are submitted. I don't think so.
hammy
the whole point of the master sheet is to stop use of the magic pencil . which it does not do.!!!! not to "help" out shooters when they dont hand in.
chris b
the shooter knew it was raised from the master because he didnt give his card in. maybe he complianed. try to keep up.
wylye
must be some bending of rules concerning this then. I bow down to your superior knowlege. however the submiting of cards from the master , as you do , now precludes the shooter from any sort of disiplinary action because it is not recorded that the card was not handed in . because you "helped" them out by giving them a score , not a no hand in. it is clear that not handing in of cards is a disiplinary matter under the current rules.
bit sad when a ground owner of your repute does not know or apply them.
the whole point of the master sheet is to stop use of the magic pencil . which it does not do.!!!! not to "help" out shooters when they dont hand in.
chris b
the shooter knew it was raised from the master because he didnt give his card in. maybe he complianed. try to keep up.
wylye
must be some bending of rules concerning this then. I bow down to your superior knowlege. however the submiting of cards from the master , as you do , now precludes the shooter from any sort of disiplinary action because it is not recorded that the card was not handed in . because you "helped" them out by giving them a score , not a no hand in. it is clear that not handing in of cards is a disiplinary matter under the current rules.
bit sad when a ground owner of your repute does not know or apply them.
