british skeet

[Ray]

Hi Ray. You are saying that the British Open should be shared between England Ireland Scotland and Wales. Any CPSA registered ground with four or more layouts can apply to hold these events and be included on the rota. I think its a case of not many grounds having the facilities and/or not wanting to hold these events rather than trying to place the shoots throughout Great Britain.

Hi Gail,  Maybe your right, I'm not sure if this is the case, it was mentioned at SC last weekend, as I know Paul Nelson at Morton Clay Targets wants to hold the event, but has never been asked ?  :fie:

I'm sure James McKeown at Cainview Farms in Ireland would love to hold the event, the ground itself is immaculate and has held Internationals in the past, in fact held last year's International.  :nyam:

 

[snipey]

Once I cooled off after Saturday's fiasco I felt compelled to express my thoughts to the CPSA specifically Nick Fellows:

I would like to express my massive disappointment with the British Open Skeet, held this weekend. 
 
I was down to shoot on the Saturday afternoon at 2pm, and in the week up to the competition is was apparent that the weather was going to get nasty for some parts of the weekend! I would like to say that this complaint isn't 'sour grapes' with regard to the weather, I realise that Southern Counties couldn't help this however they COULD have made things easier for those people shooting in the poorer conditions. The problems that I would like a response from the CPSA on are this:
 
- Why were the targets changed to black clays from the usual blaze clays (its my 'local' ground so I should know). The forecast was known well in advance, and blaze clays are clearly visible in ALL light conditions; so why were they not used?
 
- Why were the targets were not hooped? Granted the wind was affecting them, however when the wind dropped the targets were no where near regulation height; this was particularly bad for the low house on most layouts. Again this is standard practise by Southern Counties for normal registered shoots, but I expect the rules to be enforced when they are operating one of the premier skeet events of the year's calendar! Nottingham were able to put on great targets in worse conditions earlier in the year!
 
- Why were the 'removable' OSK fences left up, when we were shooting an major ESK event? To my knowledge there isn't limit at which that targets are to be shot be, so why were they allowed? It must also become a refereeing nightmare to distinguish a late shot breaking just before the fence and someone missing but being given the target because it hit the fence? 
 
The 3 items above combined to make it a test of eyesight in the low light/misty/rainy conditions of Saturday afternoon rather that the test of skill as it should be! As I have said Southern Counties is my 'local' ground and are use to there lack of consideration towards the shooters (especially skeet shooter), however for the CPSA to allow them to run this competition AND attend the event and let them get away with this is disgraceful!
 
I really feel that the CPSA board really need to get there act together. Stop fighting with the regions over the articles of association and CONCENTRATE on the basics tasks, which is what the members pay for!
 
I look forward to your response.

The response i received:

Dear Simon,

Thank you for your e-mail. I appreciate your sentiments and am sorry that you did not enjoy the event for the reasons you have set out.

With regard to the colour of the targets, it is generally felt that black clays are more suitable in misty conditions such as were experienced on Friday morning and so these remained in use throughout the weekend. As far as ‘hooping’ the targets is concerned, there is provision in our rules for them to be checked if they are felt by the referee not to be flying correctly (weather conditions are clearly a factor here). I’m not aware of a request from any of the referees, but did you raise this at all on the day? I know they were set correctly at the beginning of each day but clearly conditions may change subsequently.

The issue of the fences was discussed by a number of us and there are two sides to this. I accept that they would prevent a target from reaching its full distance if it has not been shot earlier, but in this instance a no-bird would be called. The benefit is that they prevent targets from interfering with the shooting on the adjacent range if they are missed, or shot late. The fences were installed originally to accommodate the Olympic discipline but it is now no longer possible to remove them, however, as I have said, there is also a benefit to them in ESK.

With regard to your final point I can assure you that the Board is not ‘fighting with the regions over the Articles’, as you put it. One of the fundamental requirements of a National Governing Body is to have effective governance and it is important that we have a constitution that is robust and fit for purpose. We have based the proposals on Model Articles and are consulting with members, as you would expect. Whilst there is on-going discussion with some members on a few points of difference, the majority of Regional Committees are supportive and I am hopeful that we shall emerge from this process with improved governance in place which, in turn, will allow us to focus more of our attention on developing the sport and progressing in areas that are important to members.

Kind regards,

Nick

Discuss!

But I am currently crafting a response!

 

[maddmatt]

I would ask him if he actually knows what fit for purpose means!

 

[blaser f3]

Hi Gail,  Maybe your right, I'm not sure if this is the case, it was mentioned at SC last weekend, as I know Paul Nelson at Morton Clay Targets wants to hold the event, but has never been asked ?  :fie:

I'm sure James McKeown at Cainview Farms in Ireland would love to hold the event, the ground itself is immaculate and has held Internationals in the past, in fact held last year's International.  :nyam:

Perhaps they have to be CPSA registered grounds (premier) and as they are not in England and they shoot National skeet not English skeet (i know it's the same ) maybe they're not on the CPSA's list of grounds,  as you would assume they're under their own associations i,e SCTA , WTSA and UTSA  (not sure about the initials )

 

[Fuzrat]

Okey dokey, point 1, they changed the target colour to suit a few hours on the first day rather than looking at the event as a whole. Utter sh*te.

Point 2, the nets in no way help ESK and are actually contravening the rules laid out in booklet 7. If a clay "interferes with an adjacent range" this is what the Balk rule is for. Break gun hold hand up and explain to the ref why.  I refer to Lady Cartridges post who seems to have some connection to SC saying if it hits the net it is lost and Mr Fellows says No Bird, what were the refs actually told? If it is not possible to remove the fences now the event should never have been awarded to SC.

Point 3 Utter spin and sh*te.

 

[Kentskeet]

I regularly shoot at two grounds where the skeet layouts are in a continuous line, they have no nets up and any interference from clays from adjoining layouts is totally negligible... what was the actual discussion he had, and who with ? I still fail to see how not allowing the target to travel its full distance is correct, I've never shot ESK at any other venue where that occurs and I can understand why non SC regulars are a bit p'd off with it .

 

[snipey]

@Fuzrat I totally agree!

@ again its utter bull

Here is my response to Nick:

Nick,

 
Thanks for the prompt reply, I have waited a couple of days to fully digest your comments before responding.
 
Could I ask who made the decision that black clays are more suitable in misty conditions?
I understand from one of the referees that the black clays were not highly visible on the Friday morning, the person who made a superb 100; didn't know whether he had hit his last bird because he couldn't see it!  Being a regular and 'local' shooter of Southern Counties, I have shot there in the sun/wind/rain/sleet and even 4ft of snow and they have always had blaze targets which have been clearly visible on the main skeet layouts.
 
With regard to hooping, did anyone from the CPSA witness the hooping of the targets? 
Unfortunately I am all to aware of being told by the Southern Counties management that the targets have been hooped when they clearly have not! Granted, maybe I should have raised the subject of re-hooping the targets to the referee. Although having been witness to shooters at registered ESK events at Southern Counties being told not so politely to go forth and multiple; I lack the enthusiasm for raising this subject. I would have preferred my sports governing body to enforce the rules that it spend time to develop.
 
With regard to the fences, I appreciate there are 2 sides to every story; but in this case there shouldn't be! The ESK rules don't state any kind of limit as to the point at which the clay has to be shot, thus no need for the fence. I feel your comment suggesting them to be a benefit as quite ludicrous. If they were, ESK clubs up and down the country would have them; but they don't. This leaves me feeling that Southern Counties couldn't be bothered to remove them and the CPSA doesn't have confidence to stand up for the shooters that it represents!
 
These 3 points came together to form a 'perfect storm' of low visibility, resulting in a miserable outing for many shooters over the weekend, particularly the Saturday afternoon. As it stands, I feel very let down by the CPSA. I can only hope that lessons have been learnt from it!
 
I don't want to detract further from the point of my email by responding fully to your final point. However I will say that the 'discussions' over the articles should not take precedence over progressing the area's that are important to the members right now; after all, the board are in their position to represent the members, not re-leave power from them!
 
Regards
Simon

Ill update if/when I receive a response.

 

[blaser f3]

It's all BO**OCKS  , apparently the nets can be dropped but need a crane or i suppose a forklift to drop them i.e AN EXPENSE , dont think i heard of one person being given a no bird because the target hit before being shot at ....this might be because 1. no one was told about this  therefore if you were slow on that bird you rushed the shot trying to get it before it hit the net , if you usually shoot the birds late (me ) you would not be shooting the targets in your normal place because they were close to or into the nets ........WRONG !! Also if anyone had insisted on the birds being altered or hooped would they have done it .......I dont think so .......spose they could of left the doors in the nets open !!  Basically its just us" whinging skeet shooters" weirdly expecting OUR governing body to run the biggest shoot of the year "THE BRITISH OPEN" under the CPSA rules that they made and that we all shoot by !! 

Bloody skeet shooting troublemakers stop moaning .............and just shoot !!

 

[Guest]

The running of the British Open Skeet was a total FARCE.

Nothing can be taken away from the Winners and congratulations to them all.

I cannot however ever remember a quote from any Champion or Competitor being posted 3 days after the end of the competition, If at all??

I believe this to be spin by the CPSA in the wake of the complaints they have received.

If this sport is to move forward and become more professional then the least shooters can reasonably expect is an apology and an action plan to ensure it does not happen again.

Maybe shooters should now be looking more closer at the changes proposed to the structure of the organisation. Once the board have total control the shooters voices will not be heard.

 

[NedFlanders]

And here is my letter to Nick

Dear Nick

I am writing to express my disappointment at the organisation of the ESK British Open last weekend. I would firstly like to say that I really enjoy competitive shooting under the CPSA banner and I strive to try and improve my performance at the major competitions every year.

However I feel that I was let down in this by the CPSA and Southern Counties shooting last weekend after travelling 300 miles and spending a not inconsiderable amount of money to take part and support this event for the following reasons:

1. On arrival at the ground I found a small notice stuck on the booking in office window saying “No steel shot to be used”, as you may be aware many skeet shooters including myself use steel shot and that was all I had brought with me. Why, well because when I booked my place on the CPSA web site there was NO mention of a steel shot ban for this event. I then had to spend a further £44 in the SC gun shop on lead cartridges. A simple notice on the CPSA web site would have meant that I arrived properly prepared.
2. Why were the OSK fences in place? There is no need for them in English skeet and as I have never been to a ground where they have these. I found them extremely distracting, especially as black clays were used. This severely affected my pick up points. I have never shot at a ground (even in a major) which has the fences and therefore it negated a large part of my practice routines.
3. Several of the ranges had clays from the low house which were quite obviously nowhere near the hoop. As I shot on Sunday when the weather was better it was obvious they had not been adjusted.
4. Layout 6, the last range, the low house has a large dark bank behind it but black clays were used and again it made it impossible to see on the normal pick up point.

Shooting is an expensive hobby and I feel that the CPSA owe it members a duty of care to ensure that the organisation of its major championships give the shooters the feeling that they have not wasted their money or time in attending them. I note that last year at Nottingham there were around 260 entrants this year only 203 is this the way that the CPSA want to see attendance going, because this year’s organisation has done nothing to help.

 

[sarachambers]

One question to be considered is whether the shoot was actually an English Skeet shoot at all given the OSK nets in place which impeded the flight of the targets?

On another note and in respect if the complaints being made, Nick Fellows is simply the CEO, not a director. If I had shot the event, I would insist that my complaints were directed to the Board. Obviously, Mr Newton would be conflicted out of any decisions made on such complaints.

 

[ehb102]

I wish someone would send Nick Fellows on a course on how to deal with customer complaints. Every time someone complains Mr Fellow's response seems to be more about justifying how amazingly right the CPSA were than acknowledging that the complainer is unhappy, that they might have a point, and that something could be done to ensure such as situation never happens again. Systematically Invalidating customer complaints is not the way to proceed. This is basic stuff for anyone in business. Hell, it's common courtesy. If someone has an issue you need to acknowledge it, not skirt blame and become defensive.There is no sign in any of these things of any understanding of the complainer's point of view. 

 

[Hotshot100]

I wish someone would send Nick Fellows on a course on how to deal with customer complaints. Every time someone complains Mr Fellow's response seems to be more about justifying how amazingly right the CPSA were than acknowledging that the complainer is unhappy, that they might have a point, and that something could be done to ensure such as situation never happens again. Systematically Invalidating customer complaints is not the way to proceed. This is basic stuff for anyone in business. Hell, it's common courtesy. If someone has an issue you need to acknowledge it, not skirt blame and become defensive.There is no sign in any of these things of any understanding of the complainer's point of view. 

This is what happens when you've got someone with virtually no practical knowledge of shooting running the show.

 

[ehb102]

This is what happens when you've got someone with virtually no practical knowledge of shooting running the show.

Well, you don't need to be able to shoot to know how to handle a customer complaint. I think that regardless of the lack of shooting knowledge, it shows a lack of business knowledge.

 

[blaser f3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrkwgTBrW78&list=RD02T098BBuvmjs

 

[Ferryman]

Andre that just about Sums them up. Very Good.

 

[snipey]

I received this response today:

Dear Simon,

I’m happy to provide further responses to your questions as below:

The decision on the colour of clays to be used was made by the ground, using their extensive knowledge and experience of the difficult conditions that can occur there.

With regard to hooping, the ground manager is a CPSA director and very experienced in this discipline, as are the referees. Any request to re-hoop would have been considered accordingly, although our rules state that the targets should be set in calm conditions. Clearly, this is not always possible.

I understand your concerns and we are taking careful note of the feedback we have received from this event.

On the issue of the Articles, the current directors are not trying to take away power from their co-members but have had invested in them a great degree of responsibility to govern the Association properly and in accordance with the Companies Act. This runs alongside the responsibility to ensure that the Association governs our sport properly and effectively to ensure that members continue to enjoy their shooting. Feedback is taken on board and will be used to inform future decisions.

I trust this will help to allay your concerns.

Kind regards,

Nick

Ultimately I see this as a total cop-out, Nick 'Teflon' Fellows as he shall now be known! Now where did I put the proxy voting vote for the EGM.........

 

[** Pending Removal **]

I am sorry that you have all had a poor experience at a major championship....but....this is the new world order.....so we had all better get used to it. It is a case of turn up....pay your money....shoot what we deliver....and duck off home......giving us your membership fee on the way out.

You will never get any acknowledgement that Cpsa has been wrong, inept, or lacking in business skills.

You will never get an apology...no matter how wrong they are....or how much it costs them.....

How dare you even question them :wink:

Proxy form is about all you have left ....if you are not at the EGM.....because once the articles are passed with the few rogue new article in there........you are stuffed......now and forever.

(Not to mention the little tiny sneaky one....that no one notices....that will allow for directors to move towards being paid more than just expenses....of course....coming out of the reserves no doubt.......oh dear.....oh dear...)

As for the British moving out of England. Cpsa is the NGB for England only. It decided to title an event 'a British' many moons ago...in all the English disciplines......but it is still a Cpsa event and therefore runs in England.

The other countries that make up the UK could also choose to run a British if they chose to. The Scots could run a British in Scotland....the Welsh could run a British in Wales...and the Northern Irish could run a British in N I.

It is not the ownership of the Cpsa even though they always run one in Engand.

Not to be confused by a British run by BICTSF which can be moved around each year (if the BICTSF board is not lazy) to a new venue giving each of the 4 countries a chance to hold it. This does happen....but not often enough...because the English whine ........true story..!

Some of the answers and spin from Fellows are pathetic in the extreme..... and shows the lack of experience of the Board at dealing properly with a co-director who could not be arsed when his ground holds a major...and thus the resulting contempt shown to and felt by the shooters.

But of course......you must understand clearly how the new world order works............'If'.....you complain about not being satisfied with your purchased experience.............you are branded a trouble maker.......although you get a spin reply, your letter is filed in the bin......and.....your name goes on the wall at HQ.........and.........if you continue to be a trouble maker.....by simply asking for clarification or an answer......they then ignore you......and probably your picture is moved to the executive dart board :laugh:

 

[Paul]

OK folks, I may be miss-guided but first off I don't think that what SC delivered was actually an English Skeet event conducted under the rules as published by the CPSA.  So, can any of our legally qualified contributors guide me on this - I would have thought that the trade descriptions act 1968 should apply here if any miss-representation or description applies.  If that is the case anyone fancy taking it on?

I'm sure it will all come out ok in the end as the manager at SC was overheard responding to a complainant that if it didn't fit the rules he'd have them changed to make sure it would, he should know as he's also a Director of the CPSA.  Sara very generously suggested that he would conflict himself out of any such discussion - sadly it's never been the case in the past, he has a track record of ensuring that any rule he doesn't like can either be ignored by SC or changed by him and the board.  cant imagine what he's doing there really - oh look, he's not been for the last several meetings or AGM's, must be too busy making sure his ground runs events correctly, ha, ha.

 

[Skeetfreak]

Fortunately as skeet shooters in the UK we have two other options to shoot competitive skeet:-

England Skeet Club - which is attended by some of the top shots in this country with excellent prize funds, good events that carry a prestige to win and use some of the top skeet grounds in the country. Even runs a "International type event" Only thing that is missing is the averages records really.

NSSA - the "elephant in the room" as it offers EVERYTHING that the CPSA does but has never gained the popularity for some reason but it is a viable alternative to CPSA skeet even if you are just shooting 12 gauge. Averages, Monthly specialist magazine, A world championship, plus all the other benefits listed in another thread on here a few days ago - all for $40 a year. Sure yes you would really want to add insurance but this could be done through CA or BASC if wanted / needed. Just needs the grounds and shooters to come on board and it would be off and running.

So i think we as skeet shooters (Compared to other disciplines) are actually really well placed if the CPSA balls things up as we can simply walk away on mass to another already in place organisation and carry on. Would not take much to put into place the "English / British" shoots for either of these organisations either.