Cartridge Speed - How important ?

[schmokinn]

Within reason not at all.

 

[Geordieboy]

Not important in the slightest.

Pattern is very important. 

Shoot a slow 21gram shell and see how well it breaks nearly every target on an ESP layout and you'll know that the reduced shot count and slower speed delivers a very sweet pattern.

 

[Big G]

For a longer range target would a faster cartridge or a larger shot size be more effective, using a 3/4 choked gun?

 

[Geordieboy]

For a longer range target would a faster cartridge or a larger shot size be more effective, using a 3/4 choked gun?

Theres no substitute for patterning your gun with several cartridges. 

However in answer to your question, I've found that a good trap shell in 7 shot smashes everything past 70yds. 

Some notably hard hitting shells I've used, Fiocchi Fblack 7.5s, Fiocchi Golden trap, Lyavale World cup 6.5s, Clever Magic RVS3 7.25, CLEVER Pro Exra Evo 7.5's.......and my current favourite, ELEY TITANIUM STRIKES.

WHY?,....Because I patterned them and the pattern was tighter than the Superb, and it's very smooth to shoot.  Breaks at range confirm I'm holding a very tight pattern using 3/4 choke in both my Browning and Perazzi.

I Dont use full choke in either gun because the pattern plate tells me they are both cack! 

I hope that helps!

 

[schmokinn]

For a longer range target would a faster cartridge or a larger shot size be more effective, using a 3/4 choked gun?

No and maybe,maybe depends on what you call distance and luck.

 

[FESkent]

No and maybe,maybe depends on what you call distance and luck.

Small shot size used in clay shooting loses velocity very quickly so regardless of the muzzle velocity by the time the shot has traveled around 25 to 30 yards it will be travelling at the virtually the identical velocity.

however shot time down the barrel will be different which can make a difference to perceived lead, so find a cartridge you like price wise, recoil, availability and stick with it. 

 

[schmokinn]

"however shot time down the barrel will be different which can make a difference to perceived lead"

If you actually believe that i would give up shooting right now!

The immense amount of BS posted on here sometimes makes me cry with laughter 

 

[FESkent]

"however shot time down the barrel will be different which can make a difference to perceived lead"

If you actually believe that i would give up shooting right now!

The immense amount of BS posted on here sometimes makes me cry with laughter 

If you say so , but fortunately I don’t have to take your BS advice either.

 

[Geordieboy]

Cartridge speed is unimportant. 

Consistency is important.

The only thing I've noticed with really fast cartridges, is the recoil goes up.

 

[Will Hewland]

Cartridge speed is unimportant. 

Consistency is important.

The only thing I've noticed with really fast cartridges, is the recoil goes up.

The few times I’ve used an expensive high speed cartridge, I’ve been so distracted by the unpleasant recoil that I’m not sure I noticed what happened otherwise. 

 

[Salopian]

A very interesting topic.

When we consider that the average speed of a clay is travelling at about 58 feet per second 

Cartridge manufacturers claim speeds of circa 1400 to 1600 fps at the muzzle (but then slowing appreciably down range) we really shouldn't have any worries about cartridge speed catching a clay ?

Interestingly I know a young Butcher's apprentice from Hastings who has won many a World and National clayshooting title using a cartridge called Kent Champions with a claimed velocity of 1150 fps . Kent's are no longer available (although I can give you the recipe) but the lad went on to use Gamebore White Gold at a claimed muzzle velocity of 1450fps ( remember it is slowing after leaving the muzzle) .

 

[schmokinn]

If you say so , but fortunately I don’t have to take your BS advice either.

Didn't give you any advice ergo it cannot be BS...i would suggest you explore the laws of physics,get some common sense and and properly investigate the crap you have copied and pasted from Google before embaressing yourself!

 

[timps]

however shot time down the barrel will be different which can make a difference to perceived lead, so find a cartridge you like price wise, recoil, availability and stick with it. 

If you look at the simple calculation I did earlier 100 fps difference over the full 40 yards means the maximum a clay travelling at 40 mph moves is about 3 inches,  obviously in the real world it will be less than 3” due to the velocities involved not being constant and everything slowing.

Just taking the time spent in a 32” barrel means that for every 100 fps increase in velocity a clay travelling at constant 40 mph has moved 0.1 of an inch.

Perceived leads are not going to change with 0.1 inch increments, what you are saying is you have to cut back your lead by 0.3 of an inch (7 mm) because you are now using 1400 fps rather than 1100 fps.

As with the other calculation it will be less in the real world as it doesn't take into account acceleration and deceleration of everything involved but just indicates perceived lead doesn't really change and just in the eye of the beholder.  

 

[schmokinn]

If you look at the simple calculation I did earlier 100 fps difference over the full 40 yards means the maximum a clay travelling at 40 mph moves is about 3 inches,  obviously in the real world it will be less than 3” due to the velocities involved not being constant and everything slowing.

Just taking the time spent in a 32” barrel means that for every 100 fps increase in velocity a clay travelling at constant 40 mph has moved 0.1 of an inch.

Perceived leads are not going to change with 0.1 inch increments, what you are saying is you have to cut back your lead by 0.3 of an inch (7 mm) because you are now using 1400 fps rather than 1100 fps.

As with the other calculation it will be less in the real world as it doesn't take into account acceleration and deceleration of everything involved but just indicates perceived lead doesn't really change and just in the eye of the beholder.  

You probaly know far more than me Timps but i was under the impression that the load accelerated all the way down the barrel due to expanding gases and reached its maximum as it left the end of the barrel or is that what you said?

28g of shot in the shot cup  be it 9 or ssg shot makes no difference at all...it is still 28g of lead behaving as one projectile.

Once it leaves the barrel and seperates the differing size of shot will then be effected by physical forces to a greater or lesser extent.

Therefore this statement is BULLsh*t "however shot time down the barrel will be different which can make a difference to perceived lead"

 

[Lloyd]

You probaly know far more than me Timps but i was under the impression that the load accelerated all the way down the barrel due to expanding gases and reached its maximum as it left the end of the barrel or is that what you said?

28g of shot in the shot cup  be it 9 or ssg shot makes no difference at all...it is still 28g of lead behaving as one projectile.

Once it leaves the barrel and seperates the differing size of shot will then be effected by physical forces to a greater or lesser extent.

Therefore this statement is BULLsh*t "however shot time down the barrel will be different which can make a difference to perceived lead"

I know there seems to be issues with “experts” and science,  but for what it’s worth (very little I’d guess) from what I have read from “experts” (not making any personal claims to be of superior intelligence to others) The shot reaches (“maximum”) full velocity within 30-50cm. I do believe this is the reason 24” (61cm) barrels are the legal limit (info from various sources) 

second point, again from the “expert” not I, but shot doesn’t sit inside the cup as one tidy little lump all the way to the muzzle. It’s effected by the forcing cone and on exit.

now, I’m not sure how this information has be obtained by said “experts”. Perhaps it was by observation or perhaps by simulation. It could even be by assumption, so there are always caveats. 
 

let the games begin!

 

[timps]

You probaly know far more than me Timps but i was under the impression that the load accelerated all the way down the barrel due to expanding gases and reached its maximum as it left the end of the barrel or is that what you said?

In simple terms yes, however ‘most’ modern cartridges will do the bulk of the acceleration in the first 10” then after that it will continue to accelerate but at a greatly reduced rate, but its maximum velocity will be at the end of the barrel. We then have the fact choke can increase velocity but I am not getting into that one again.

In the very simple calculation, I just took the difference in velocity of 100fps over 32” with no acceleration so this is the maximum difference it could ever be for a 100fps difference. In reality the difference in velocity could be less than 100fps until right at the end depending on the burn rate which means the clay has moved even less than I quoted.

Therefore, a clay will have only moved a couple of centimetres, if that, between the fastest commercially available cartridge and the slowest just taking the barrel into account.

If you are adjusting lead, perceived or otherwise because there is 2 cm difference at the clay between the fastest and the slowest available cartridge getting there then yes, I would question the statements veracity.

 

[Lloyd]

@timps Just for clarity, not that it makes much of any difference to debate, the velocity quoted by manufacturers, isn’t that measured  at something like one meter from the muzzle?

 

[Freddypip]

My understanding is that the barrels ballistic 'effect' are achieved at the 24 inch mark.  Anything over that and length is not relevant - other than its affect on handling. A good sealing plastic wad and high quality powder which burns (comparatively) slowly will 'push' the shot out of the cartridge and could achieve a higher speed with less recoil over longer distance that the first 4 inches or so (hence the longer forcing cone sin modern guns). I think the 24inch legal limit is due to ballistic reasons (why would you want anything shorter if it doesn't pattern properly) and also to stop short guns you can put down your trousers.

My experience is that switching between a slow and fast cartridge can result in the lead changed sufficiently for a miss - Say Hull Sovereigns (World Cups) to Eley First Select fibres at 40 yards or more. That's the extremes however. A fast cartridge might help with range but I am inclined to believe other factors (such as the hardness of the lead, wad design, quality of the shot) are just as important.

Stick to the same cartridges - at least those is the middle of the speed range. By the time you are good enough to think cartridge speed might matter you will have realised it doesn't.

 

[timps]

@timps Just for clarity, not that it makes much of any difference to debate, the velocity quoted by manufacturers, isn’t that measured  at something like one meter from the muzzle?

Most Cartridge manufacturers use a test rig so the bore and choke are the best design to get the most velocity out of them and not always realistic to what you shoot. In the UK manufacturers tend to measure observed velocity at 2.5m then some calculations to work out the muzzle velocity.

Some manufacturers are, let’s say, very creative in these back calculations.

 

[FESkent]

Removed, tried to post a picture but failed.