Guns with adjustable combs

[40UP]

Malcolm is my hero on stock fitting. When he says trap guns pitch straight and sporters pitch down, I don't take it to mean that pitch is purely for comfort.

 

[ips]

I dont know him but I know of his reputation.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

Can I just say re the OP in thinking of adding an adjustable comb. When trying to achieve your preferred balance in a gun say stock 820gm, barrel 1640gm Malcolm Jenkins says an adjustable adds 100gm which may not be your first objective.

Gun balance is pretty over rated AFAIC.  People get al misty eyed over how some wand feels "in the hands".  Who GAF?  What does it feel like shooting it?  Guns have to be pretty strangely weight distributed before they are beyond using in low gun games.  I have an old Beretta SxS that took a little over 4oz of lead in the stock to make it "balance" at the hinge.  And that was with 72cm/ kg1.4 barrels!  What bothered me was that after a couple hundred targets I couldn't tell the difference from the previous out of balance state.  I suspect that you can learn to live with about anything that is within the guns manufacturing tolerances.  And different wood could easily have put that 4oz in the stock.

In pre-mounted gun target games it is pretty difficult to make the stock so heavy as to affect the gun handling.  What does make a difference is anything you feel different in terms of changes of weight in the forend hand.  Three oz in the stock will never be felt handling wise since it is so close to the axis of rotation and fixed against the shoulder anyway.  And just for the record, Perazzi adjustables in the recent type stocks are WAY heavier than 100 gm - more like 300 prolly.  I mean heavy!  But they do not noticeably affect the gun handling at all even then.  Pretty simple classical style physics concept if you look at the shooter/gun thing as a centroid calculation

 

[jwpzx9r]

40UP I have one fitted as standard. I actually like it! I shoot with it raised quite a bit and it has stopped me lifting my head off the stock to see the target better... which really does make you shoot high! I only asked the question to gauge what others thought of its usefulness to the trap shooter and this happened! I won't be asking anything more.

 

[ips]

Gun balance is pretty over rated AFAIC. People get al misty eyed over how some wand feels "in the hands". Who GAF? What does it feel like shooting it? Guns have to be pretty strangely weight distributed before they are beyond using in low gun games. I have an old Beretta SxS that took a little over 4oz of lead in the stock to make it "balance" at the hinge. And that was with 72cm/ kg1.4 barrels! What bothered me was that after a couple hundred targets I couldn't tell the difference from the previous out of balance state. I suspect that you can learn to live with about anything that is within the guns manufacturing tolerances. And different wood could easily have put that 4oz in the stock.

In pre-mounted gun target games it is pretty difficult to make the stock so heavy as to affect the gun handling. What does make a difference is anything you feel different in terms of changes of weight in the forend hand. Three oz in the stock will never be felt handling wise since it is so close to the axis of rotation and fixed against the shoulder anyway. And just for the record, Perazzi adjustables in the recent type stocks are WAY heavier than 100 gm - more like 300 prolly. I mean heavy! But they do not noticeably affect the gun handling at all even then. Pretty simple classical style physics concept if you look at the shooter/gun thing as a centroid calculation

wonko

I welcome your input and most of it i agree with however to imply gun balance is of little relevance intrigues me considering the time mfrs, fitters, coaches and of course us shooters spend on it. Its fair to say that you will adapt to any gun eventually but there can be no doubt from any experienced shooter that balance can make a huge difference to the handling characteristics of a gun.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I would really like to continue this but I have other things to do.

here are a couple hints

guns do not function in isolation and that is why I put "balance" in "x"

"Balance" only matters when the gun is in the shooters hands and even where those hands are placed can grossly affect the "balance" of the gun - where the fore hand is placed ahead of the action is the commonest action to change the gun's dynamic.

Even in a move/mount/shoot the gun is but a component of a complex asymmetrical 3 dimensional mass that is constantly changing its weight distributions and in consequence its dynamics.  Gross changes can also be made in that 3-D mass intentionally totally altering its dynamic w/out changing any aspect of the gun itself.

Ideal gun "balance" characteristics are illusory since they are easily amenable to alteration by nothing more than the way the gun is held and individual preferences for weight distribution characteristics of the 3-D mass.

I have an old wrist chronograph that I wear all of the time.  Watch and bracelet weigh just at 3oz - 84gm.  When I wear that watch and grasp the forend I just added 3oz to the gun forward of the hinge point.  Almost  as much as that adjustable comb, right?  And I can slide that weight thru a considerable range of distances from that hinge point.  Would that much weight materially affect the "balance" of the gun if it were just hung out there on the barrels.  You betcha - watch those muzzles dip.  Do I feel that "balance" shift?  Not even.

Shooters make intuitive decisions based on the information that is incomplete.  Or wrong sometimes.  Analysis of the optimum shooter/gun relationship is not dependent on some distant past decision that the hinge point of a SxS fixed breech gun is holy writ as where the thing should "balance".

Hope y'all are having a great New Year!!!

Charlie

 

[ips]

Much of that complex reply seems to concur with the fact that balance is important, you might not like to admit it but balance is very important to you. You can tell the difference with your hand placement and even your watch so ..... ?

ps

happy new year

 

[** Pending Removal **]

12

 

[ips]

Ha

 

[Paul120]

"Balance" only matters when the gun is in the shooters hands and even where those hands are placed can grossly affect the "balance" of the gun - where the fore hand is placed ahead of the action is the commonest action to change the gun's dynamic.

Yup, agree with this. fast targets (e.g OT) move your hand back slower (e.g DTL) forward. I've read that Mr Digweed does this to suit the targets at certain stands.  

19

 

[ips]

Never bothered with that myself, same place everytime for al trap disciplines.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Yup, agree with this. fast targets (e.g OT) move your hand back slower (e.g DTL) forward. I've read that Mr Digweed does this to suit the targets at certain stands.

19

Agreed....but don't forget length of barrels ..!

19 :wink:

 

[Jay]

A balanced gun is highly important because it's one of many things that need to be right - along with gunfit, stance, mount, grip, mental game, etc etc.

 

[Jay]

12

Nicola, what does the 12 mean?

Does it mean that someone in here is a 12th Dan Black Belt in the martial art known as sh*tINFO?  Balance is important in Martial Arts too you know! 

 

[ips]

As is the ability to kick your opponent in the tackle.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Ssssssssssssh it is Ninja....!!

If you are a ninja.....I can tell you :wink:

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I've been trying to read into what I wrote whatever it is that some of you seem to read into it, and I'm just stoned if I can do it.

But then, it wouldn't make any difference anyway, would it?   :fie:

I have a newold barrel coming tomorrow, quite a bit lighter than the barrel on the gun now.  Prolly throw the balance just all to hell and gone.  Ah well, guess I'll just have to deal with it.

 

[Les53]

I think at times we can mix up gun balance and point of balance, which are not the same as far as I'm concerned. Point of balance is merely a place on the gun where the gun balances without tipping in one direction or another. Gun balance is something far more complicated and often cannot easily be defined! It is possible to have a heavy gun which is so well balanced, probably due to the particular distribution of mass, that it actually feels lighter than it's weight and therefore will often handle much more quickly that its weight would allow the user to assume it would. I myself have a DT11 that weighs in at 8lb 12 oz, however when in the shoulder it feels much lighter and it handles more like a gun at least 1lb lighter. It is possible also to come across guns that have a balance that will make them feel heavier than they really are!

 

[ips]

Hallelulya, bang on once again les.

most guns balance point is on the hinge pin but as you say were is the weight at each end to do this ?

its like the urban myth of stock in the bent bit of your arm and you can reach the trigger means it fits, it dont, same as you say about balance there is more to it than that.

 

[BoB1]

I think at times we can mix up gun balance and point of balance, which are not the same as far as I'm concerned. Point of balance is merely a place on the gun where the gun balances without tipping in one direction or another. Gun balance is something far more complicated and often cannot easily be defined! It is possible to have a heavy gun which is so well balanced, probably due to the particular distribution of mass, that it actually feels lighter than it's weight and therefore will often handle much more quickly that its weight would allow the user to assume it would. I myself have a DT11 that weighs in at 8lb 12 oz, however when in the shoulder it feels much lighter and it handles more like a gun at least 1lb lighter. It is possible also to come across guns that have a balance that will make them feel heavier than they really are!

Well, saying a heavy but well balanced gun can feel lighter than a heavier, not-so-well-balanced gun, its (sort of) like using a well balanced wheelbarrow. If you load everything back near the handles, its going to be harder to lift than if all the weight is loaded up over the wheel. Or am I talking out my ass?