Lead ban announcement for live quarry shooting
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Lloyd
Well-known member
just to reiterate as it seems to have become lost in translation.
im not an advocate for banning shooting or banning anything for that matter.
its rather accepting the inevitable and looking at the alternatives (steel shot) which seem more than adequate now and are likely to improve with a little time.
Happy and healthy and considerate shooting long may it continue.
im not an advocate for banning shooting or banning anything for that matter.
its rather accepting the inevitable and looking at the alternatives (steel shot) which seem more than adequate now and are likely to improve with a little time.
Happy and healthy and considerate shooting long may it continue.
Lloyd
Well-known member
Lloyd steel is not adequate replacement for lead fact. If your stating adequate to break a clay or take live Quarry, I'd consider only adequate to a point if your willing to limit your range. I love shooting long range Clay's seeing 15 foot+ of gap. Now go shoot a 60yard crosser with lead (can be hit consistently) try the same with steel then tell me steel is adequate. Or what is your definition of adequate
Paul120
Well-known member
On the effectiveness of steel ; Norway repealed their ban due to the ineffectiveness of steel. I guess to get a Parliament to overwhelmingly vote to do so was based on some evidence to convince them.
From my own experience DTL becomes a lottery. You can't change the laws of physics.. Jim.
From my own experience DTL becomes a lottery. You can't change the laws of physics.. Jim.
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schmokinn
Well-known member
@lloyd
So how long you have been shooting clays,how often and many do you shoot,do you shoot registered or just straw balers,what disciplines you shoot?
So how long you have been shooting clays,how often and many do you shoot,do you shoot registered or just straw balers,what disciplines you shoot?
Lloyd
Well-known member
@Paul120 Indeed you cannot change the laws of physics. Jim or even Issac Newton.
So... what laws of physics are at play in the process of breaking a clay?
In simplistic terms, the clay will break when sufficient force is applied to it to cause it fracture.
So, keeping it to actual shooting, we can say that the force applied to the clay is from the transfer of kinetic energy from the shot to the clay (material is irrelevant at this point).
We know that Force equals mass multiplied by acceleration plus work done against friction (Deceleration is negative acceleration)
So at the point of impact, the velocity of the pellet mass is decelerated by the clay and this a force is applied to the clay.
The laws of physics say that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Thus the pellet is also subject to the same force as the clay and is this also subject to some deformation.
now here is where material properties begin to plug into the physics equation. Change in material density will mean that pellet volume (diameter) will change accordingly for a given pellet mass.
pellet hardness also comes into this too. This is why we add antimony, or tin to lead, or in part, why we add coatings, though the coatings have a different primary functions.
a harder shot transfers more kinetic energy to the clay. With softer shot, some of that energy is used up in deforming the pellet itself and thus there is less energy available to transfer to the clay.
in summary, given basic laws of physics, a steel pellet of the same mass as a lead pellet would in free space transfer more energy to the clay.
a steel pellet of the same diameter as that if a lead pellet has less mass and thus less energy to begin with
bringing to the equation more complex physics does complicate the issue, but these issues are the same regardless of material. The material simply modifies the result , not the process or the physics.
these complications can be found in the work done against friction, the interactions between pellets whilst in the forcing cone, barrel, choke and interaction with the environmental conditions (air)
steel again exhibits properties that are advantageous over softer shot, but gives up in other areas.
to encapsulate that, steel shot cartridges would benefit from further optimisation in wad design, forcing cone and choke design.
this should be quite easily accomplished
@schmokinn only shoot clays, since May, less than 2000 shells, only 25 of those steel to date and those 25, not specifically optimised for clays.
My premise is that joe public are opposed to lead in any context.
of course we can offer up evidence to show that their risk is negligible. Heck, we may even be able to offer up evidence to show that the risk is nonexistent... from any source. But can we expect Joe Public to believe shooting minority who has lead use in its self interest or the scientific and health community With public interest at their core, whom many put their trust and faith in and have mainstream media on their side.
on the other hand, we can, sooner by choice or later by inevitable enforcement work towards adopting alternative materials, steel and optimising that in order to continue enjoying the sport.
change is a fact of life and has been for hundreds, neigh, thousands of years. Millions even.
the March of change can hardly be slowed, let alone be halted.
its perfectly normal that some will embrace change and others will resist, and whatever your preference that’s just fine. but history has shown change marches on unabated.
personally I tend to embrace change... though not always.
im not here trying to change anyone’s mind and I’m not here to have anyone change my mind.
I’m simply declaring my point of view as others do and I respect that, regardless of my agreeing or not
I may be a snowflake according to you, but this snowflake doesn’t simply melt under the heat of debate. I am all growed up and a big boy now and can hold my nerve against opposition. Especially when it’s something as trivial as this topic. I have and will continue to have much larger and scarier fish to fry.
im frankly a bit disappointed in how my comments have been challenged By and large. I’d hoped for reason, evidence, logic. I’m left wanting.
@Will Hewland Didn’t say much, but I felt what he had to say was thoughtful, thought provoking, intelligent and added value. Dare I say it, I’ll raise my glass to that
So... what laws of physics are at play in the process of breaking a clay?
In simplistic terms, the clay will break when sufficient force is applied to it to cause it fracture.
So, keeping it to actual shooting, we can say that the force applied to the clay is from the transfer of kinetic energy from the shot to the clay (material is irrelevant at this point).
We know that Force equals mass multiplied by acceleration plus work done against friction (Deceleration is negative acceleration)
So at the point of impact, the velocity of the pellet mass is decelerated by the clay and this a force is applied to the clay.
The laws of physics say that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Thus the pellet is also subject to the same force as the clay and is this also subject to some deformation.
now here is where material properties begin to plug into the physics equation. Change in material density will mean that pellet volume (diameter) will change accordingly for a given pellet mass.
pellet hardness also comes into this too. This is why we add antimony, or tin to lead, or in part, why we add coatings, though the coatings have a different primary functions.
a harder shot transfers more kinetic energy to the clay. With softer shot, some of that energy is used up in deforming the pellet itself and thus there is less energy available to transfer to the clay.
in summary, given basic laws of physics, a steel pellet of the same mass as a lead pellet would in free space transfer more energy to the clay.
a steel pellet of the same diameter as that if a lead pellet has less mass and thus less energy to begin with
bringing to the equation more complex physics does complicate the issue, but these issues are the same regardless of material. The material simply modifies the result , not the process or the physics.
these complications can be found in the work done against friction, the interactions between pellets whilst in the forcing cone, barrel, choke and interaction with the environmental conditions (air)
steel again exhibits properties that are advantageous over softer shot, but gives up in other areas.
to encapsulate that, steel shot cartridges would benefit from further optimisation in wad design, forcing cone and choke design.
this should be quite easily accomplished
@schmokinn only shoot clays, since May, less than 2000 shells, only 25 of those steel to date and those 25, not specifically optimised for clays.
My premise is that joe public are opposed to lead in any context.
of course we can offer up evidence to show that their risk is negligible. Heck, we may even be able to offer up evidence to show that the risk is nonexistent... from any source. But can we expect Joe Public to believe shooting minority who has lead use in its self interest or the scientific and health community With public interest at their core, whom many put their trust and faith in and have mainstream media on their side.
on the other hand, we can, sooner by choice or later by inevitable enforcement work towards adopting alternative materials, steel and optimising that in order to continue enjoying the sport.
change is a fact of life and has been for hundreds, neigh, thousands of years. Millions even.
the March of change can hardly be slowed, let alone be halted.
its perfectly normal that some will embrace change and others will resist, and whatever your preference that’s just fine. but history has shown change marches on unabated.
personally I tend to embrace change... though not always.
im not here trying to change anyone’s mind and I’m not here to have anyone change my mind.
I’m simply declaring my point of view as others do and I respect that, regardless of my agreeing or not
I may be a snowflake according to you, but this snowflake doesn’t simply melt under the heat of debate. I am all growed up and a big boy now and can hold my nerve against opposition. Especially when it’s something as trivial as this topic. I have and will continue to have much larger and scarier fish to fry.
im frankly a bit disappointed in how my comments have been challenged By and large. I’d hoped for reason, evidence, logic. I’m left wanting.
@Will Hewland Didn’t say much, but I felt what he had to say was thoughtful, thought provoking, intelligent and added value. Dare I say it, I’ll raise my glass to that
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Lloyd you should be a politician you type very long posts to say very little. There is lots of spin out there from pro steel shot brigade and no hard evidence to justify a ban on lead. Its another attack on shooting as a hole.
Lloyd you have shot less than 2000 shells? How could you even tell the difference between inadequate cartridge and driver error ? I dont understand how some one with such little experience can be singing the praises of steel shot?
Lloyd you have shot less than 2000 shells? How could you even tell the difference between inadequate cartridge and driver error ? I dont understand how some one with such little experience can be singing the praises of steel shot?
Lloyd
Well-known member
@Gavin
Not said based on experience. Based on knowledge. Based on physics.
What if my experience with lead if I missed 10,000,000 shots? Lead is poor at breaking clays?
Phyisics is independent of experience or skill and it’s quite dependable.
gavin, you said very little. For example, you haven’t said with what shot size steel you have attempted those 60 yard plus edge on crossers. You haven’t said what type of wad was used. You haven’t said what choke. You haven’t said what gun. You haven’t said you never miss such targets and every song one you’ve shot at has broken with lead and every single one you shot at with steel didn’t
again, descending into comments about a personal attribute says absolutely noting about the topic but everything about the commentator
Such traits are evident in Politics also. Perhaps there is role for you in Whitehall?
Not said based on experience. Based on knowledge. Based on physics.
What if my experience with lead if I missed 10,000,000 shots? Lead is poor at breaking clays?
Phyisics is independent of experience or skill and it’s quite dependable.
gavin, you said very little. For example, you haven’t said with what shot size steel you have attempted those 60 yard plus edge on crossers. You haven’t said what type of wad was used. You haven’t said what choke. You haven’t said what gun. You haven’t said you never miss such targets and every song one you’ve shot at has broken with lead and every single one you shot at with steel didn’t
again, descending into comments about a personal attribute says absolutely noting about the topic but everything about the commentator
Such traits are evident in Politics also. Perhaps there is role for you in Whitehall?
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Lloyd you stated steel is an adequate substitute for lead, I asked you what your definition of adequate is ? As shot lead is far superior to steel FACT. please tell me how steel shot is adequate? Iv shot game long before iv ever shot Clay's and was always of the opinion respect your Quarry use enough gun enough choke and enough cartridge. When this ban comes in the amount of pricked birds is going to be unacceptable. This ban will not affect me in the short term as I live in Ireland but the writing is on the wall for all shooting. We are a minority and should be standing together.
I'm out on this topic when we are under attack from within what chance do we have
I'm out on this topic when we are under attack from within what chance do we have
paul b
Well-known member
Why is everyone going on about steel?Whats wrong with bismuth,apart from the expense ,although if you can afford to pay to shoot game whats another couple of quid per bird?
schmokinn
Well-known member
Well llloyd my presumptoin though unvoiced was correct.You have little to no experience of real world shooting.
I have found that many recent new shots become experts in their own mind in no time at all.
Experience tells me you are wrong about steel shot,people who i respect within the shooting fraternity with many years more than my many years of experience know that steel is no substitute for lead.
You keep spouting textbook physics with no real world experience to temper it,people like you will never learn and will deny even when experts in the field tell them different e.g. world champs,experienced ground owners.etc.
It was years before i voiced my opinion on such things not through lack of confidence but because i understand that there is more to shooting than science and never a substitute for experience.
As i have stated it is the likes of you that will be the end of shooting as we know it if not in total,i am generally the most welcoming and helpful person to knew shooters but some can't be helped snd can't help themselves.
There is definitely a new breed that have read everything,got the app on there phone and believe that they are right even in the face of experience and expertise.
There are many reasons why lead is superior to steel,there is no argument simple as that.
I will end it there as it is pointless trying to reason with somebody who has no common sense or any ability to understand its application.
I have found that many recent new shots become experts in their own mind in no time at all.
Experience tells me you are wrong about steel shot,people who i respect within the shooting fraternity with many years more than my many years of experience know that steel is no substitute for lead.
You keep spouting textbook physics with no real world experience to temper it,people like you will never learn and will deny even when experts in the field tell them different e.g. world champs,experienced ground owners.etc.
It was years before i voiced my opinion on such things not through lack of confidence but because i understand that there is more to shooting than science and never a substitute for experience.
As i have stated it is the likes of you that will be the end of shooting as we know it if not in total,i am generally the most welcoming and helpful person to knew shooters but some can't be helped snd can't help themselves.
There is definitely a new breed that have read everything,got the app on there phone and believe that they are right even in the face of experience and expertise.
There are many reasons why lead is superior to steel,there is no argument simple as that.
I will end it there as it is pointless trying to reason with somebody who has no common sense or any ability to understand its application.
Problem is it won't stop there will it,Bismuth would make for a very expensive round of clays
paul b
Well-known member
This isnt about clays,but a shift in the rules to allow bigger pellets for steel would be needed when that inevitably happens,hopefully not any time soon.
schmokinn
Well-known member
"Problem is it won't stop there will it" referring to the future and the ball rolling on.
Game now,clays later...
Will Hewland
Well-known member
@Lloyd Thanks I hope to keep it constructive, but my humour can push boundaries..
I must just say that while the laws of physics are irrefutable, I’m pretty sure that antimony used to harden lead shot is done to assist with deformation at launch and while the pellets are hitting each other as they fly out of the barrel. Rounder pellets fly straighter and the pattern is improved. I’m pretty sure that there is little or no benefit in this hardness at the striking of the clay, which is designed as a very brittle object that won’t significantly absorb any energy, but will merely break down. It would be different if clays were made of something resilient.
I must just say that while the laws of physics are irrefutable, I’m pretty sure that antimony used to harden lead shot is done to assist with deformation at launch and while the pellets are hitting each other as they fly out of the barrel. Rounder pellets fly straighter and the pattern is improved. I’m pretty sure that there is little or no benefit in this hardness at the striking of the clay, which is designed as a very brittle object that won’t significantly absorb any energy, but will merely break down. It would be different if clays were made of something resilient.
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ips
Well-known member
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Bleeding ell this thread went off the rails about 3 posts in....anyway my two peneth,,,,
steel isnt as effective as lead for killing stuff cleanly.
I dont accept the argument regarding health issues relating to the use of lead for shot.
As for BASC etc, i see this as a proactive move as they and other organisations assume (probably correctly) that the banning of lead is inevitable so chose to fall on there own sword. I think we have many other things to worry about such as the GL and the potential for the restrictions on releasing reared birds.
steel isnt as effective as lead for killing stuff cleanly.
I dont accept the argument regarding health issues relating to the use of lead for shot.
As for BASC etc, i see this as a proactive move as they and other organisations assume (probably correctly) that the banning of lead is inevitable so chose to fall on there own sword. I think we have many other things to worry about such as the GL and the potential for the restrictions on releasing reared birds.
El Spavo
Well-known member
Anyone fancy a pint?? 
Lloyd
Well-known member
Thanks Will. I’ll look into that. Makes sense. In this respect an issue with steel it is too hard.
Your humour is absolutely fine with me. I’ve not taken any offence at anything anyone has said, even those pointing directly at me in a disparaging way. I’ll give as good as I get but try to maintain some sense of decorum along the way.
im really interested in the experience of those who have shot steel at game and say the kills aren’t clean. I’m curious as to the shot size and wad type.
that said, my interest is only really in clays. When taking of a 50 yard crosser won’t break with steel, again what shot size. No: 7 steel would have a pellet mass of 0.067g. No:8 lead has a pellet mass of 0.063g, diameter 2.2mm, I’m no George Digeeed but I cannot imagine having a great success rate shooting 60 yard edge on with No:8 lead. Sure, if I get everything spot on, I’d break a few.
I recently read Will some comments you made about Longthorne barrels. You advocated that the single piece design was better, by design and by technology. Counter argument was made proffering that Longthorne barrels was hogwash and if they were so great Perrazzi or Beretta would have done it.
You know probably better than most that engineering is a progressive problem solving activity. I simply put it that lead has had its day. It’s once great virtues may still hold true but perhaps less so than in times gone by. I proffer that a new paradigm will come about. One way or another it’s inevitable. I as an engineer embrace that change with confidence that time and effort will take us to new horizons And vistas to be enjoyed
@schmokinn My experience In shooting is irrelevant.
but I can point to a post in this forum where a world champion says he has shot steel 60 yards out with “awesome breaks”
but I guess his experience and skill will be an inconvenient truth.
i might not be so experienced in shooting, but I counter, what is your experience of physics?
if you’re ill, would you go to a doctor? Which doctor? A witch doctor.. because science isn’t real world?
Art is expression of unmeasured parameters. Science is measure the of parameter to gain understanding and control of the art.
Science has many times disproven hitherto casual observations filled with ignorance science for sure doesn’t have all the answer, but it’s answers are near universally more accurate than “experience” we’re not anymore in the 18th century.
heres my take on “experience “
as a sixteen year old apprentice making bronze bushes on a capstan, I changed without asking the process. My scrap rates were lower than before growing up in an engineering family, I didn’t have the 25 years experience that my supervisor had but I dad have knowledge that was well founded on physics.
still I was told that my lack of experience meant I couldn’t possibly be correct and I was instructed to carry on as my supervisor had done for 25 years scrap rate went back up
25 years of erroneous behaviour isn’t worth squat to me when held up against 1 day of correct.
so please do continue with your greater experience I’m sure you’ll break more clays than I, but it won’t make you correct
