Lead ban announcement for live quarry shooting

[Gavin]

Wasnt  going to say any more on this  but  I never was one to bite  my lip. Lloyd you come across as a complete ***

 

[Lloyd]

Wasnt  going to say any more on this  but  I never was one to bite  my lip. Lloyd you come across as a complete ***

 I come across as a complete three star? Why thank you @Gavin I didn’t realise you cared so much about me. 
 

seriously though, I think you might mean ***? Nob? ***?  Come on Gavin. Don’t be shy now. 
 

so, I offer up the laws of physics and microbiological evidence and in return I’m met with very thinly veiled insults. 
 

now, I think I might come across as clever as one chap put it. But no. I’m not. I might come across as educated as that same chap exclaimed. But hardly.

now I’m willing to say I might come across as arrogant or even pompous. It’s been said before and perhaps they were right. 
 

but it is not i that is correct. It is the laws of physics. The simple facts. Failing to acknowledge those doesn’t change the laws of physics or any known facts. 
 

I might be many things, but a ***? An ***? A nob? I’d say those that lower themselves to such levels can be more easily identified with such terms

ill stick with arrogant and pompous 

 

[Gavin]

Lloyd you have offered up nothing of any value  facts are facts. In layman terms  steel  dont have the weight  you can go up shot size to counteract but being a larger size, Bigger surface area  more air tension to fight against.  You seem to thing changing choke profile, forcing cones,  wads, can fix this problem?   Any tweaking  with any of the above would be only marginal    and steel shot is probably 90%  of how good it's ever going to be.  And as for your virtues  you can add condescending

 

[schmokinn]

Your right lloyd your shooting experience is irrelevant as you do not have enough to make it valid.

Without even looking i can guess that the awesome 60yard breaks were made by a Gamebore cartridge and i would more believe Trump is an honest man.

You see thats the benefit of experience....but you don't have any in this subject.

You don't really seem to understand that gameshooters do not want to risk a clean kill for the sake of appeasing people who have no understanding of there pastime.

Nevermind i am sure your sliderule says its Ok so nothing to worry about eh.

Add ignorant to your list of attributes.

 

[Paul120]

There are articles on the internet that will explain the physics fully , including shot size, density, shot hardness, effects of deformation on energy transfer etc  rather than  a conclusion based on a long winded list of logical steps of partial facts and assumptions. 

I'm out of this topic too. Apart from not wanting to be patronised. As said earlier the explanation of the physics is out there for all to search for.  For a country's government to accept the findings in an area that would go against the eco friendly railroading  politics and and tick box mentality of today, there must have been a bloody good reason to overturn sa ban.  No politician would risk their seat otherwise.

 

[Lloyd]

@schmokinn My experience In shooting is irrelevant.
but I can point to a post in this forum where a world champion says he has shot steel 60 yards out with “awesome breaks”

but I guess his experience and skill will be an inconvenient truth.

i might not be so experienced in shooting, but I counter, what is your experience of physics?

if you’re ill, would you go to a doctor? Which doctor? A witch doctor.. because science  isn’t real world?

Art is expression of unmeasured parameters. Science is measure the of parameter to gain understanding and control of the art.

Science has many times disproven hitherto casual observations filled with ignorance  science for sure doesn’t have all the answer, but it’s answers are near universally more accurate than “experience”  we’re not anymore in the 18th century.

heres my take on “experience “

as a sixteen year old apprentice making bronze bushes on a capstan, I changed without asking the process. My scrap rates were lower than before  growing up in an engineering family, I didn’t have the 25 years experience that my supervisor had but I dad have knowledge that was well founded on physics.

still I was told that my lack of experience meant I couldn’t possibly be correct and I was instructed to carry on as my supervisor had done for 25 years  scrap rate went back up 

25 years of erroneous behaviour isn’t worth squat to me when held up against 1 day of correct.

so please do continue with your greater experience  I’m sure you’ll break more

 

[Lloyd]

@schmokinn  I believe said world champion shoots Hull. Said so himself in said post and has done for a couple of decades. I guess your experience taught you it was gamebore?

Slide rules are a relic of the past. It’s a spreadsheet nowadays. that’s progress for you

i definitely don’t understand gameshooting. I have zero knowledge or experience of that. Physics on the other hand I do. Again it seems some are inviting me to go deeper as it’s been suggested that what I’ve written so far doesn’t go deep enough. Oddly, it has appeared the basics have  been largely disputed without foundation, so goodness knows what more advanced physics will be subject to.

ignorant? Of what? The facts? Physics? I’m ignorant of a great many things, but not all things as I’m quite sure you are also ignorant of many things but not all things.

Or perhaps you, mean ignorant as in rude? From you, a person who stooped to personal insults and continues to do so, I’d say that’s quite hypocritical. Honestly, I’d have more respect if you hadn't crouched so low. Disappointing. 

many times I’ve seen ”experience” falter over knowledge. Such as a builder who screwed up an architects plans and built a pile of crap using this experience as a guide. 
 

ive seen experience touted by those lacking in other areas as if it were a trump card. It isn’t. Experience is simply knowledge gained over time without peer review or proper benchmarking. 

I’ve got a fair amount of experience in many things, but I defer to those with lesser experience and greater knowledge as my experience (the irony) tells me it’s more often than not the more prudent approach.

so, my apologies for being rude, but your experience doesn’t count with me at all.

im sure I can shoot more clays, gain more experience. What about you? Plan on reading any medical journals or physics textbooks?

on my limited experience, I have in the back of my mind comments from my experienced coach who tells me he’s seen people with 20 years experience shoot more poorly than I. Going further to tell me he’s witnessed people spending 30 to 40 cartridges to find the lead and hit a clay that I hit on the fifth. The irony is I seem to hit more the less I think. Perhaps your right about knowledge. It’s a wast of time. Next time I need a surgeon I’ll go ask that builder to sort me out
 

 

[Gavin]

What a merchant banker   

Over and out 

 

[wynno]

ill stick with arrogant and pompous

Never a truer word spoken.

lloyd, give it up son.

 

[Centrepin]

Or a glass of white wine or fruit based drink, for the ladies?

You gonna be in trouble now! 

Fancy assuming the ladies don't drink beer.

Wouldn't want to be in your shoes, experiences tell me not all ladies like fruit punch and sherry. Physics, biology and chemistry tell me they are well capable of drinking the better stuff



Oh dear, best go now before I get kicked out.

 

[Lloyd]

ill stick with arrogant and pompous

Never a truer word spoken.

lloyd, give it up son.

Why? Why should I “give it up”? Because you say so? Isn’t that just a little bit arrogant?

My experience is superior to your (Issac Newton’s) laws of physics and science... isn’t that just a little bit pompous?

i have more experience than you this my opinions are superior to yours... isn’t that just a little condescending?
 

ive been driving cars longer than Lewis game so obviously I’m the superior driver

I’ve laid out a few extra words to insult me with to save you the effort and you took the bait. 
 

kettle calling the pan black  quod errat demonstrandum.

knowledge is borrowed, experience is earned, intellect is owned. This thread is impoverished 

 

[Rod M]

My 2 cents, but I find the approach the BASC (and the other signatories) are taking to be a bit odd (leaving aside the indefensible lack of involvement of the membership); would be interesting to know their full reasoning behind the decision. I'd say that the animal cruelty angle is far more important to the general public than the material used in shot, to the extent that the latter likely doesn't even cross most people's minds. By most accounts, steel is inferior to lead for clean killing of game. Science aside, I would also expect game shooters to use the available ammunition that yielded the highest success (for reasonable cost); this seems to be lead. Yet the BASC is, effectively, proposing adopting steel shot and arguably fanning the flames of the animal cruelty movement i.e. they are proposing shot that is broadly perceived by the game shooting community to be less humane.

Proposing steel shot for clays MAY make more sense, given the volume shot, the likely cost reductions, recoverability of shot, etc. However, this comes back to the argument around shooters choosing the most effective available ammunition at reasonable cost. If a manufacturer can come up with a truly competitive steel shot that is the same, or ideally cheaper, than lead, then I expect people would use it. This obviously hasn't happened yet.

 

[Westward]

i definitely don’t understand gameshooting. I have zero knowledge or experience of that.

And that's your problem right there. It's not about physics, and even if it were, you're not the only member with an engineering degree.

Please read the following and inwardly digest.

lloyd, give it up son.

 

[schmokinn]

lloyd=troll

A very sad man with a false cpsa number

You spout so much crap on a subject you have no experience or understanding of.

I woulld suggest getting a life but you would probably need a spreadsheet to understand why.

 

[Bebo]

false cpsa number

Not necessarily.  Privacy settings on the cpsa website allow you to make your scores invisible.

 

[Lloyd]

And that's your problem right there. It's not about physics, and even if it were, you're not the only member with an engineering degree.

Please read the following and inwardly digest.

It’s definitely not ONLY about physics. I do believe you have to point the barrels in roughly the direction of the targets. Perhaps that’s why some are having issues with steel shot?

I’m sure there are people here with much better degrees than I that doesn’t void my point of view. Everything I’ve said is borrowed. None of what I have said comes from my own discovery or testing. It has come from established physics,  not mine. It comes from a well know cartridge manufacturer. Not mine. It comes from scientific white papers. Not mine. I haven’t made any claims to be special. It’s others that seem to think this. I am quite realistic about my mediocrity. Again, why should it “give it up”?

I’m pretty sure that’s not advice, rather a plea. I’ve said before , I’m all growed up big boy and quite capable of forming my own opinions. I’m just as comfy being wrong as I am being right. 

ive yet to encounter anything substantial that I personally would give credence too that would warrant a change in my opinion. I’m very open to it if any cares to take up the challenge. Though I suspect not

 

[wynno]

Lloyd.

You know everything about shooting, and you know nothing about shooting.

from your previous comments you DO come across as pompous and arrogant, one thing you are correct on though, is that this thread IS impoverished and you are the chief culprit.

And that’s my final word on the subject.

 

[schmokinn]

Not necessarily.  Privacy settings on the cpsa website allow you to make your scores invisible.

Thanks for that Bebo,doesn't hide it elsewhere though!

 

[Lloyd]

Not necessarily.  Privacy settings on the cpsa website allow you to make your scores invisible.

Thank you @Bebo . I did not know that.
 

For the benefit of those who doubt my words and perhaps are presuming I’m a liar and a fraud, just as my access to world leading scientists on a “direct line” I offer up further evidence. But give the responses, I’m sure someone with more experience or just blind belligerence will endeavour to discredit the image as a photoshop stunt because I don’t have a life or something and I need to get out more. 
 

It’s been insinuated that my comments are lacking in substance and indeed they are, but neither are they entirely devoid. 
 

however, claims to know which i world champion and which cartridges I refer to and with whom I am in daily contact or what their knowledge or experience may be or even the validity of my COSA membership without actually substantive evidence, really is confirming the Hall marks of folks clutching at random straws to make themselves feel more right. It doesn’t make it so. I guess there feels safety in numbers. Myself, I’ve never been afraid of the path less traveled and I’d admit I tend to go out of my way to find the path of most resistance, because for me, Theron lies new horizons and experience. Not always better, but often more interesting 
 

thankfully not all members of this forum are lacking in good manners and behaviour.

Thanks for that Bebo,doesn't hide it elsewhere though!

 has it escaped you? Where else would you need to look?

instead of spending your time researching me, perhaps research why the general public are afraid of lead? Try researching selflessness. Try researching public interest. Try researching lead poisoning. Try reading about physics or balsitics. Try... oh I dunno... getting a life or getting out more. must admit im flattered that you find me so interesting you wish to spend your time looking me up, but I’m in a stable long term relationship and I don’t swing that way. 
 

incase you need help with that... it’s sarcasm. Add that to my list of abhorrent attributes 

 

[schmokinn]

Clutching at straws no,understanding why you are blinded by science yes.

The reason it didn't come up in scores was simple you have none.

Hide your name good,i have no wish to publicise your person details just an interest in why somebody would be so bloody mindedly scientific and argue against the real world experience of skilled people in the field.

Boasting of your contact with various people and using it to try and validate your science will never endear you to many.

The thought that somebody may actually know better about something outside your remit is obviously beyond you.

Massively intelligent you may be...common sense you have none.

.