Lead ban announcement for live quarry shooting

[Lloyd]

@schmokinn I hope your GP or surgeon isn’t blinded by science next time you need one.

if you were curious about my scores, you only need to have asked, but that ought to have been reasonably obvious given I have made no attempt to hide my inexperience. 
 

hide my name of course. For one, I have young children and for a second I appear to be taking to aggressive individuals with shotguns. 
 

I have real world experience in many areas and my observations have at times been erroneous, proven wrong by scientific evidence. My experience tells me that science is a more reliable metric than experience alone. Combined the two can be potent.

Boasting about my contacts is no more endearing than your boast of experience, to which you appear blinded by. My objective isn’t to endear people to me. I have enough people in my life to share and enjoy life with. 
 

neither is it my objective to change anyone’s mind. I’ve enough experience and common sense (surprisingly uncommon) to know that’s unrealistic and given the churlish responses, highly unlikely.

i have done enough epically stupid things in my life to know with confidence that I’m the antithesis of “massively intelligent “

infact it’s pretty stupid that I keep up these exchanges, but I confess I’m somewhat entertained. Troll? In this context, yes, I can see why that would be levied against me. But as I see it a troll is an antagonist for the fun of it and the sole purpose is entertainment. In this case, I believe in what I have said, or rather, what others much better qualified and experienced than I have told me. All my postulating is second hand. I’ve no reason to hide that fact. I just happen to agree with what I’ve been told as I believe I have a rudimentary understanding  of the information that’s been imparted to me.

So a Troll? I wouldn’t generally identify with that, but I’m fine if that’s how others view me. It doesn’t change anything for me or for anyone else. 
 

Being in possession of esoteric knowledge doesn’t qualify me or anyone else as being smarter than another. Similarly 50 years of erroneous experience isn’t worth much against 1 year of accurate experience.

im not questioning the effectiveness of your experience, I’ve no idea who you are or what your scores are, they don’t matter to me and  I’ll happily just take you at your word.
 

as for bloody mindedness, I’m no more bloody minded about science and steel than you are about experience and lead
 

 

[ips]

Give me 5 mins guys, i have run out of Popcorn

 

[Gavin]

I would very much take with a pinch of salt  what sponsored shooters say  about  there equipment.   

 

[Centrepin]

When my kids where very little,  one of there favourite books was 'Billy Goats Gruff' they used to get me to read it over and over again. 

"I'm a troll, foll do rol" "Whose that crossing my bridge.

Very entertaining for the little ones.

 

[Rod M]

I must say, this thread has made me curious to try some steel shot (on clays)

 

[timps]

Before physics gets completely rubbished in this thread.

The Density of lead is 11.36 g/cm3 and for iron its 7.87 g/cm3   that is an increase of  44.35 % so not insignificant. Obviously when mixed with other constituents this will change so not all lead shot will have the same density depending on manufacturer.

Using the figures already provide on this thread, which I cannot comment on their accuracy compared to other manufacturers.

No 7 steel is 2.54 mm and 0.067g and comparing it to No 8 lead at 2.2 mm and 0.063g. These figures might not sound much but that's because they are small so you look at the percent increase.

You have to take into consideration the 'unless acted on by another force' part of the equation, the main one for this being friction of air, this is very very important for ballistics and in Newton’s equation.

So steel 7 is 15.45% greater in diameter than lead 8 but only 6.3% greater in mass to accommodate it.

In simple layman’s terms that’s a 53.8% increase in volume but only 6.3% gain in mass and in terms of ballistics this is a massive % increase. 

Now the rule of thumb by most who have studied this say you go up two shot sizes for steel meaning that steel 7 would be equivalent to lead 9. Based on the above percentages that seems feasible.

Now obviously there are caveats, the steel tends to have a higher initial velocity but slows a lot quicker than lead. Therefore shooting at close targets the steel may hit harder but the further you go this diminishes to a point where it doesn’t do the job as well and/or not at all. That part is plain physics but now including the frictional force bit.

How far out the target has to be is the big question, is it beyond normal clay range? beyond ethical  kill range?  That depends on how much impact energy is needed to break said clay. But the fact remains steel is inferior and could cost you clays hence why no one is prepared to make the shift if others are still using lead .  

I have shot steel quite a bit at clays and it does do the job, the irony is that it is great for skeet but most skeet grounds ban it due to ricochet. 

As for game this gets even more complicated, steel shot can pass straight through where as lead can expand on impact. Any projectile that expands on impact causes more damage for two main reasons, the exit wound is greater than entry wound and the trajectory through the body is not straight it usually tumbles once expanded hitting more organs along its path.  Expanding ammunition proves all this but how much lead behaves like expanding ammunition and steel doesn’t is a whole other subject but the principle is there.
 

 

[Lloyd]

@timps

thanks for the additional input 

in simple terms, aerodynamic drag would reduce velocity cubed 

the energy required is equal to the (area x by coefficient of drag x the velocity cubed) divided by the renoylds number

reynolds number is variable on the length of the bod and air density primarily, but can be assumed in the region of 146,700. 
 

the coefficient of drag for a smooth sphere is generally assumed to be 0.47cd. 
 

lead is more susceptible to deformation in the barrels/chokes, so could find the sphere is presented to the airflow as a disk, increasing drag, or as a long thin body, decreasing drag, or a combination, more probably. 
 

steel is likely to maintain greater consistency in this regard as individual spheres and as a group 
 

after this point, the behaviour as a group really begins to become complex. The question for me is, can this be understood and can this be controlled and can this be optimised.

simulations done at work we’re very crude. Serious computing power is required and even then, science here does in fact become increasingly vague. At least for now.

Timps, again thank you for the input I’d hoped for

as for kills on birds, I bey what your saying is true as I have spoken to a ballistics expert and had this confimed. 
 

the ineresting thing here I suppose is BASC et.al could have walked into a much worse case. It could there’s be said that steel might actually present game shooting as a pastime becoming increasingly unpopular with the public as a result and bismuth might be the only realistic answer for the time being. As it was pointed out by one commentator, it’s another coupe of pounds per bird, but for some that extra couple of pounds might tip the balance and of course that would feel unjust 

 

[timps]

Dealing with a single projectile is a lot easier,  trying to deal shot clouds is very difficult however here is a very good theoretical investigation into it if you are interested.

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1382490/1/396689.pdf  

 

[schmokinn]

I was no way interested in your scores or your children which you seem to think are at risk.

Using the words shotgun and agressive in the same sentence to describe me is at the very least melodramatic and devisive simply trying to Paint a picture of me as something i am not to your own ends.

I feel like Yosemite Sam now!

If people do not agree with you your want is to beat them down with a vast amount of verbage,honestly it is not impressive or eloquent.

Your feel that you need to contact an expert to verify everything on a forum where presumably as a beginner in the game you came to learn or gain advice is self defeating and disingenuous.

"Permanently grumpy"? i think you are probably right

You are without doubt  a Troll and i will leave it there lest you next acuse me of being Michael Ryan

 

[Lloyd]

And of course @schmokinn your own conduct has been exemplary I’m sure. 
 

if you are unfortunate enough to contract the corona virus, please be sure not to contact any experts or scientists as that’s clearly a stupid thing to it would seem by your very weak counter arguments. You’d be best off with your mate down the pub with 25 years experience with ibuprofen 

and you’ve contributed  your own vast amount verbage for what gain? For what objective?

you know, along with troll any snowflake and no backbone etc etc etc, that’s verbal garbage, has won you nothing and has made no difference to my opinion. Perhaps if you’d consulted an expert you may have presented yourself less Yosemite Sam

 

[wisdom]

If lead shot is completely banned all my guns would be worthless.I have owned them all for years and none are steel proofed.Also my clay ground does not allow steel shot for safety reasons.So that is another avenue of enjoyment I have had for years closed to me and possibly closed down.

 

[Centrepin]

I must say, this thread has made me curious to try some steel shot (on clays)

I ordered some to try tomorrow but unfortunately they've not arrived. I'll try them Sunday if they get here and report back.

Presuming I hit what I hope I'm shooting at, I'll give "my opinion" based purely on what I find on the day and based just on my performance. This will have no relevance to anything at all, especially live game. It will rely on nothing to do with FPS, penetration, blah blah blah. Just an average guy on an average day with a Shotkam to show just how poor I am and if that particular steel at that particular grammage and shot size makes any difference on that particular day. (Is grammage a word?).

 

[Gavin]

If lead shot is completely banned all my guns would be worthless.I have owned them all for years and none are steel proofed.Also my clay ground does not allow steel shot for safety reasons.So that is another avenue of enjoyment I have had for years closed to me and possibly closed down.

Theres going to be a lot in the same boat  and for no valid reason 

 

[El Spavo]

You gonna be in trouble now! 

Fancy assuming the ladies don't drink beer.

Wouldn't want to be in your shoes, experiences tell me not all ladies like fruit punch and sherry. Physics, biology and chemistry tell me they are well capable of drinking the better stuff

Ah, that line maintained Al Murray in work for over a decade so can't be that contentious. 

I must say, this thread has made me curious to try some steel shot (on clays)

Funnily enough, after reading this thread, I'm not too bothered about it! 

Now. Where was i....

 

[Centrepin]

Funnily enough, after reading this thread, I'm not too bothered about it! 

The real reason I'm going to try them is they're on sale for £152 per thousand and if I'm only shooting fresh air I might as well do it on the cheap

Maybe I should change my screen name from Centrepin to Tightwad

 

[MartynB]

Great Posts Timps .  Also your concluding paragraph about live game is spot on .  

The other thing not to be forgotten with Live game is that most of us adhere to “sporting tradition” and we wouldn’t take a close bird  to mitigate a deficiency in the terminal ballistics of a load .  

I don’t want to upset anyone , but honestly  the science of killing soft skinned quarry isn’t hard . It was perfected 150 years ago with the introduction of the breechloading shotgun , and the development of choke.  It doesn’t need reinventing .  
 

Sorry if a few birds go claws up , from picking up lead instead of grit , whatever the number it’s a tiny fraction of the number killed by the domestic moggy . No one will ban moggies will they ? Because if they did a all the old ladies who vote and are RSPB members would riot . So Invent an  eco cause , get right on for a few Waitrose customers who don’t know how to prepare game ( the sorts who feel good that their lice ridden , flacid ,  reared in a sea pen salmon are “ certified ) etc etc etc 

 

[timps]

Last time I shot steel at clays was a few years back. My mate had some to try and was shooting similar as he did with lead until we got to a far out edged on crosser. He took four shots with steel and it missed every time, I passed him some lead and he got 3 out of four then went back to steel and missed.

Obviously the immediate reaction was that it was the steel.

I shot the same clay and hit all four with lead but the breaks were poor, he passed me some steel and again hit all four but the breaks were fantastic.

We looked at each other, shrugged and walked off.

I’m in no rush to use it again, it can do the job on a clay ground, I’d just rather shoot lead as I am just more consistent with it so given the choice that's what I do.

Regarding steel proof you don’t need it for standard steel shot so you are good to go unless your gun is a Damascus barrel, its only HP steel  which needs 3” chambers and the proof mark. You would never use HP steel at a clay ground. 

Lots of clay grounds banned steel due to insurance and ricochet incidents but if lead is banned for clays then they would obviously have to re address the situation or close.

The CPSA at least is fighting for the continued use of lead at the moment so hopefully wont come to that.

 

[LarsJ]

This thread reminds me of Denmark 25 years ago. We have lived with a lead ban since 1996. And that’s a total band both for clays and game. But a lot of the arguments posted here was what was said 25 years ago. Don’t get me wrong  I’d rather shoot lead, and I don’t see the environment hazard in lead for shot. But all I have known shooting shotgun is steel ( apart from 6 grounds that have dispensation to shoot lead for ISSF games, my normal OT training is not allowed to shoot lead so we shoot steel). But we got on with it, and after a few years there was no worries about it.

 I also think it has something to do with hunting tradition we just hunt in a different way with shotgun, we don’t have the tradition for going for high birds as you do.

Most guns can handle steel shot, apart from old Damascus and the sort. Denmark is not part of CIP, so no requirements for fleur de lys on barrels and such. But people happily shoot clays with steel shot, and that’s also with 3/4 and full. Shot size no 7 or six , and no bigger loads than 28 grams. I shot more than 10.000 through a Miroku MK38 trap, no worries. One in the club shoot the Beretta he competed with in Seoul and have more than 100.000 through without issues. Another an ASE 90 with same amount. The reason for the warning is that there will always be a knob that will try to shoot 36 grams of BB through a full. And the will give some issues. But smaller pellets size like 6 and 7 no worries. Actually we have a danish amendment to the OT rules for shooting in Denmark. Instead of the ISSF 24 grams no bigger than 2,4 mm, we are allowed ( for competition in Denmark only) 28 grams of shot size no bigger than 2,85 mm  to compensate for the difference between steel and lead in density.
 

I understand your frustration but it isn’t that bad.

where you, in my opinion should be really pi..... is the way your organization have made a decision that obviously is not what the members want, especially without consulting paying members.

Just my pennies worth, no science behind it, just my limited shotgun shooting experience.

Lars

 

[El Spavo]

If lead shot is completely banned all my guns would be worthless.I have owned them all for years and none are steel proofed.Also my clay ground does not allow steel shot for safety reasons.So that is another avenue of enjoyment I have had for years closed to me and possibly closed down.

Sounds like a good excuse toooooo... BUY A NEW GUN!!

The real reason I'm going to try them is they're on sale for £152 per thousand and if I'm only shooting fresh air I might as well do it on the cheap

Maybe I should change my screen name from Centrepin to Tightwad

...and where on earth are you getting them at that price?!! I'm **** enough to have some of that without worrying!!

 

[Centrepin]

Sounds like a good excuse toooooo... BUY A NEW GUN!!

...and where on earth are you getting them at that price?!! I'm **** enough to have some of that without worrying!!

Just cartridges, search "Super steel" or go to 'shop', 'clays' then scroll till you find them. I thought for the price it's worth a try.