Prize Money Schemes - please read the post first...
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radrac
Well-known member
people who are at the top of the sport i.e. the highest gun on the day should be rewarded with the highest payment for being in that position whether its £150- 200 etc, the classes should be broken down to at least 4th place depending on entries say 80 - 60 - 40 -20 obviously entry dependent, and it should be spread through the classes, whether people like it or not there is not enough ploughed back into the prize pot now and entries have just increased and increased... you need to have a high gun for the top shot or what’s the point of progressing ???
GlenPresley
Well-known member
GlenPresley
Well-known member
Need a magnifying glass!
Surely the only point of a classification system is for divvying up the prize pot? If the payout system changed to 1st to 12th overall we might as well abandon classifications. Doubt if under the current system the people who finish 1st in B & C class come anywhere near finishing in the top 12 (I know there will always be the exception that proves the rule). With no scientific evidence whatsoever I would have thought that in an average registered sporting event of 150 entrants at least 100 of them will enter knowing they will not finish in that top 12 elite. therefore the only way of forcing them to throw into the pot is to make it non optional, a levy.
I don't believe anybody needs the carrot of a monetary reward to want to improve, show me someone who doesn't want to shoot better and I'll call a psychiatrist. Doesn't necessarily mean they are unhappy with their shooting, there are plenty who would be happier if they realised their limitations and that the best equipment and even the best training/coaching will only take you so far. To become one of that elite band who regularly are High Gun, who feature in the top 10 at major championships and whose photos regularly feature in our monthly mags, they've got that thing that can't be bought - natural talent, I'm not saying deep pockets don't help, will make a competent shooter a good shooter but definitely not a great shooter without that "marksman" gene.
Bet there quite a few shooters in the country who make their living from shooting, mainly from ground ownership, international coaching and a sprinkle of sponsorship. There is not one who will make a living from prize money. Even those "bandits" who used roar round the countryside doing at least 2 and trying for 3 shoots every Sunday and winning most of them, add entry fees, fuel costs, speeding fines, refreshments and carts and the two or three hundred pounds they might pick up, there will be precious little profit in there. As many have said before if you are serious about making money from the sport you'd better find another one, golf, tennis, football, darts, snooker probably make more as a professional tiddley winks player!!
So we can't make a profit/living from prize money so why have it? well imho we all need/want some reward for doing well and money is the universal reward. So it doesn't cover your costs it's still a reward, plastic trophy - no thanks, quality trophy - 1st one is nice but after that give me the cost of the trophy. It appears to be thats what the majority of sporting clay shooters who enter registered comps want. As again has been pointed out previously, clay shooting is not cheap, don't think there are many (but I may be wrong) who enter birds only because they can't afford that additional £5, more likely they don't think they stand a chance of seeing a return on their gamble, the odds are too long. Make payouts to the top 10 or 12 and realistically no C, B and half of A class shooters will stump up. The death of prize money unless it was compulsory and then I think a significant proportion of the C's and B's will search out the "straw balers" where it's £10 cheaper than a comp entry at a registered shoot. We now don't need the CPSA as the only thing they appear to do is run the classification system. No CPSA no formalized set of domestic rules so it's a free for all with grounds doing what they want (pretty well as they do now!!). English Sporting will become a shambles, no domestic championships nothing but bigger but not necessarily better straw balers.
There is an alternative though, not one I've had much to do with, only shot it once BUT in theory it's a much fairer system - World Sporting. I'm not going to describe it here, if you don't know of it then "bingle is you friend". The basic principle though is that your average is calculated after every shoot and that gives you a handicap and the handicap determines the payout. Probably a bit simplistic but roughly right, don't know, have never thought about it's susceptibility to manipulation or sandbagging so that may or may not be an issue. I think it's a credible alternative (for sporting at least) to the current CPSA administered system but I suspect the system we have will stumble on until the politicians take our guns away.
Mr Potter
Can't be a***d voting as neither is right, if your in the top 25% of shooters you'll vote A, remaining 75% will be better off with B. I'd vote C World Sporting handicap system.
I don't believe anybody needs the carrot of a monetary reward to want to improve, show me someone who doesn't want to shoot better and I'll call a psychiatrist. Doesn't necessarily mean they are unhappy with their shooting, there are plenty who would be happier if they realised their limitations and that the best equipment and even the best training/coaching will only take you so far. To become one of that elite band who regularly are High Gun, who feature in the top 10 at major championships and whose photos regularly feature in our monthly mags, they've got that thing that can't be bought - natural talent, I'm not saying deep pockets don't help, will make a competent shooter a good shooter but definitely not a great shooter without that "marksman" gene.
Bet there quite a few shooters in the country who make their living from shooting, mainly from ground ownership, international coaching and a sprinkle of sponsorship. There is not one who will make a living from prize money. Even those "bandits" who used roar round the countryside doing at least 2 and trying for 3 shoots every Sunday and winning most of them, add entry fees, fuel costs, speeding fines, refreshments and carts and the two or three hundred pounds they might pick up, there will be precious little profit in there. As many have said before if you are serious about making money from the sport you'd better find another one, golf, tennis, football, darts, snooker probably make more as a professional tiddley winks player!!
So we can't make a profit/living from prize money so why have it? well imho we all need/want some reward for doing well and money is the universal reward. So it doesn't cover your costs it's still a reward, plastic trophy - no thanks, quality trophy - 1st one is nice but after that give me the cost of the trophy. It appears to be thats what the majority of sporting clay shooters who enter registered comps want. As again has been pointed out previously, clay shooting is not cheap, don't think there are many (but I may be wrong) who enter birds only because they can't afford that additional £5, more likely they don't think they stand a chance of seeing a return on their gamble, the odds are too long. Make payouts to the top 10 or 12 and realistically no C, B and half of A class shooters will stump up. The death of prize money unless it was compulsory and then I think a significant proportion of the C's and B's will search out the "straw balers" where it's £10 cheaper than a comp entry at a registered shoot. We now don't need the CPSA as the only thing they appear to do is run the classification system. No CPSA no formalized set of domestic rules so it's a free for all with grounds doing what they want (pretty well as they do now!!). English Sporting will become a shambles, no domestic championships nothing but bigger but not necessarily better straw balers.
There is an alternative though, not one I've had much to do with, only shot it once BUT in theory it's a much fairer system - World Sporting. I'm not going to describe it here, if you don't know of it then "bingle is you friend". The basic principle though is that your average is calculated after every shoot and that gives you a handicap and the handicap determines the payout. Probably a bit simplistic but roughly right, don't know, have never thought about it's susceptibility to manipulation or sandbagging so that may or may not be an issue. I think it's a credible alternative (for sporting at least) to the current CPSA administered system but I suspect the system we have will stumble on until the politicians take our guns away.
Mr Potter
Can't be a***d voting as neither is right, if your in the top 25% of shooters you'll vote A, remaining 75% will be better off with B. I'd vote C World Sporting handicap system.
GavB
Well-known member
Id vote C world sporting - its what we use between three of us for a bit of a laugh at local straw balers
Didnt no you seen my tinky-winky omg !!!
Never seen a hedge monkey who did not grumble over prize money, weather, entry fee, cost of petrol, grub or some other problem they can grumble about.
We Tarpies of course are perfect customers, we never grumble over owt, honest.
Phil*
We Tarpies of course are perfect customers, we never grumble over owt, honest.
Phil*
EdSolomons
Well-known member
Unless the clay goes through the wrong part of the hoop... Or it's windy.... Or someone
Farts on the line.... ;-)
Farts on the line.... ;-)
radrac
Well-known member
Mr Potter, great post.....but in my experience the more complex the system the more liable it is to manipulation. It allows those of us who understand stats and probabilities to exploit small loopholes. The current system is really simple, therefore all understand it and there is a lot to be said for that. Personally the birds only option is an anathema to me, you either embrace the nature of the competition or you don't......the nature of the majority of clay competitions is that the prizes must be paid for by the competitors....birds only allows some to avoid paying that price...!
GlenPresley
Well-known member
GlenPresley
Well-known member
................or somebody flicks their shells at you........now where did I hear that one the other day! ;-)
EdSolomons
Well-known member
Aaaahahahah! 
GlenPresley
Well-known member
Well if you can not handle the pressure! ....sorry little D tour back on subject no! ;-)
....sorry little D tour back on subject no! ;-)
