Prize Money Schemes - please read the post first...
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EdSolomons
Well-known member
Sadly seems to be quite a popular view point!
radrac
Well-known member
With understanding comes responsibility....and the dividing line that is acting with integrity or not.
Personally there is zero attraction to winning by cheating, because though you might be in the book as the winner, you know yourself it wasn't on merit. All depends on how true you are to yourself.....
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I'm certainly no expert radrac but my initial thoughts are that, whilst not impossible, it is significantly more difficult to manipulate a rolling handicap system than a 6 monthly review classification. Someone could certainly shoot deliberately lower than their ability to attain a high number handicap but come the day when they decide to scoop the pot they won't know who they are shooting against other than for the overall high gun.
Never having walked round a field with a bag of sticks looking for a dimpled ball I don't know how the handicap system works in golf. Do hear the phrase sandbagger used occasionally among my colleges who bat the little ball so perhaps it isn't working as well as it could?
Many years ago I ran a simple handicap system just among myself & 2 other regular shooting companions. We each put up a fiver a comp and the winner took the pot. It worked brilliantly but mainly because the scores used to calculate the handicap (rolling previous 10 scores) were only those when all three of us shot together so we were always comparing like with like. Everyone of us knows shoots were most can build a good score, go to mostly those shoots and you will soon be in an artificially high class, conversely just shoot "tough" grounds or championships and your classification will suffer. Really not much can be done about this but it flags up an interesting phenomena "reverse sandbagging" I know a considerable number of local shooters myself included who are more interested in attaining that AA classification than they are about the £35 in the envelope. There are two shoots on my local circuit that "shoot a bit easy" and I go to them because they are local but I'm not bothered in the slightest that they're doing my averages no harm!! This in my case isn't the true picture because my personal 5 highest scores have been at 4 different grounds. I have been firmly stuck in A class for donkeys years usually right on the cusp of AA and it's been in the last few months of the classification period when I've let things slip. A smartarsed detective might analyze the pattern of my scores and conclude I'd manipulated staying in A class!
I would sell my firstborn into slavery to have the ability to get into AA, I know I could do it if I just went to 1 or 2 grounds and nowhere else for 12 months, in fact if I went to just 2 or 3 shoots at one of those grounds I might even make AAA, so I'd be guilty of manipulation but manipulation of my ego more than anything else!
In summary there isn't a perfect system and even if there was some peoples paranoia would read things into the vagaries of life that would suggest things were going on when they're not. In my 20 odd years of shooting English Sporting clays I've had my suspicion of cheating on occasion (claiming chips from obvious misses, claims of no birds and distractions when they miss etc.) but I've never had a suspicion that someone is sandbagging into a lower class in order to win money at a later date. As above I've only ever seen "ego bagging" (there I've invented a new term) and to be honest as long as the competitor still pays the competition fee then the winner is the true AA stars.
On a final note I'll give you two examples from my shooting diary this year which goes to show that there is nowt as queer as real life!
I think that there should be a new class introduced, I class, I for inconsistent. Let me say I've never deliberately missed a clay in my life (well other than within the FITASC International Sporting rules) you've only my word for that but rest assured thats a absolute fact.
Shot a 95 at a registered 100 birder at Fauxdegla, A class HG and 2nd overall to Kevin Mayor (97), was only a few months ago and I cannot remember how much was in the envelope. Fast forward a fortnight and I'm driving home from Coniston with the figure 58 resounding in my ears. Different shoot, different targets, different weather but a 37 bird difference, not very good at this bagging lark am I as that 58 was laughed out of my averages under the 10% rule.
Forward a couple of months to Kegworth and a FITASC Sporting shoot, now I love International Sporting, my absolute favorite discipline but I can't shoot it very often because those bastards in the National Lottery office refuse to pick my six numbers. Kegworth is by far the nearest ground that holds it and that's a 180 mile round trip. I digress, so not shot that much of it, 1700 birds over the last 10 years with an average over that period of 72%. Now when I first shot this disciple in the late 80's (at Kelbrook in Lancashire) I put an 82 in, probably a fluke but that one score put me in A class and as I didn't shoot it regularly I stayed in that class for the next 10+ years, never shot the 300 required to be re-classified. Anyway as the years slipped by so did my class and, oh the shame, D class was where I ended up.
So I'm at Kegworth last month and it clicked, every bird was the size of a dustbin lid and in slow motion, I could hardly miss and finished on a 94, well over 20 birds above my previous average. Oh deep joy, 2nd overall, Cheshire Champion, beat some very big names and pleasantly surprised to win D class! As I went up to get the envelope there was plenty of (good natured I hope) shouts of sandbagger and worse.
Those two examples show that in real life nothing is predictable and strange, rogue, results do pop up, perhaps not among the elite, a bad day for the top few is finishing 3 behind HG but for us Mr Joe Average, the swings are much greater, AAA one week lower C two weeks later. A class score from a genuine D class shooter. The FITASC Sporting score will, unless I shoot any more registered shoots this period mean I'm back into A class next time, I'm neither A nor D in my mind, top end C or lower B is where I should be but not under a classification system.
More I think about it the more I'm convinced that handicap system is the way to go.
Mr Potter
radrac
Well-known member
As someone who used to hit a lot of white balls around the countryside and who knows a number of very serious club handicap players I have to say that sandbagging is very very common in that sport. Infact, as a rule, people seem to be quite open about it...my recent experience shooting would indicate that we have less of a problem and that most highlighted cases are similar to your personal experience of simply inconsistent shooting. Personally I much prefer the class system to golf's handicap system. I must admit though, I would struggle to explain exactly why that is and it might just be that it is refreshing to work under a new system (for me) as opposed to a system I have known for years. :huh:
GlenPresley
Well-known member
Agreed if you want to shoot registered it is a comp if you don't just get your claymate and shoot practise....simple!
tiptop
Well-known member
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Thats probably why there is a class structure and cash in the lower classes.
It gives something for people to chase, and while they chase that pot they are more likely to improve their scores,thus going up the classes.
Cash no matter how small, will always be more of an incentive for some people than a trophy or a pot of tipex.
For me i just enjoy shooting although i don't win that often i always enter competition.If i wanted to shoot birds only i would just go to strawbalers.
I shoot registered shoots because the targets are usually harder than strawbalers which can only make me better hopefully.
It gives something for people to chase, and while they chase that pot they are more likely to improve their scores,thus going up the classes.
Cash no matter how small, will always be more of an incentive for some people than a trophy or a pot of tipex.
For me i just enjoy shooting although i don't win that often i always enter competition.If i wanted to shoot birds only i would just go to strawbalers.
I shoot registered shoots because the targets are usually harder than strawbalers which can only make me better hopefully.
TobyM
Well-known member
That’s where we differ, I shoot different grounds and shoot against different shooters to see how I do, it’s the whole reason I started in this sport, I want to challenge and test myself.
The comp fee is an optional extra gamble, so with any gamble I work out the odds, chance of winning and what I get back. Put a levy on the entry fee for the comp and you will get no complaint from me, but ask me to gamble and I will play the odds hence why some grounds I shoot birds only.
For a lot of shooters if they have no chance of winning H/G or their class why the heck would they hand over extra money each week for nothing in return when they don’t have too, but they still want to shoot the hard shoots. A shoot with a good pay out and I am shooting well, I enter, rubbish payout or I’m not feeling it, I don’t, but I still go out there and try my hardest to see how I do against top competition.
We do agree that getting rid of birds only is probably the best answer but I am not a ground owner so don't know how that would effect their business.
The comp fee is an optional extra gamble, so with any gamble I work out the odds, chance of winning and what I get back. Put a levy on the entry fee for the comp and you will get no complaint from me, but ask me to gamble and I will play the odds hence why some grounds I shoot birds only.
For a lot of shooters if they have no chance of winning H/G or their class why the heck would they hand over extra money each week for nothing in return when they don’t have too, but they still want to shoot the hard shoots. A shoot with a good pay out and I am shooting well, I enter, rubbish payout or I’m not feeling it, I don’t, but I still go out there and try my hardest to see how I do against top competition.
We do agree that getting rid of birds only is probably the best answer but I am not a ground owner so don't know how that would effect their business.
I would like to think that there is a very simple solution to "our" classification system......but to start you need to understand the following:
A golf course has a set degree of dificulty ie par 71 or 72 etc therefore if you go around a par 72 course and shoot an 80 then in theory youve played to an 8 handicap. The problem we have with shooting (ESP + FITASC) in particular is that there is no set degree of difficulty ie one shoot could be set for a 95 another maybe an 82...problem comes now if you win both and get classed AAA and on and only AA at the other and so on.....The CPSA want to class us all out of 100...yeah right.
In this modern age of computers why cannot it be run that if you took the top 3 scores at a shoot ie 86,87,91 then add and divide then the par for that course on that day in those conditions would be 88...everybodies scores would then be based on an 88 par so an 83 is AAA, 79 is AA and so on.....everyones classification should then be uploaded onto a central database re calculated and used next time they shoot. Then if you have a bad day of course you may drop a little but only for the next time out...shoot well and it goes back up again...to me this is so simple.....your thoughts?
A golf course has a set degree of dificulty ie par 71 or 72 etc therefore if you go around a par 72 course and shoot an 80 then in theory youve played to an 8 handicap. The problem we have with shooting (ESP + FITASC) in particular is that there is no set degree of difficulty ie one shoot could be set for a 95 another maybe an 82...problem comes now if you win both and get classed AAA and on and only AA at the other and so on.....The CPSA want to class us all out of 100...yeah right.
In this modern age of computers why cannot it be run that if you took the top 3 scores at a shoot ie 86,87,91 then add and divide then the par for that course on that day in those conditions would be 88...everybodies scores would then be based on an 88 par so an 83 is AAA, 79 is AA and so on.....everyones classification should then be uploaded onto a central database re calculated and used next time they shoot. Then if you have a bad day of course you may drop a little but only for the next time out...shoot well and it goes back up again...to me this is so simple.....your thoughts?
Bob_P
Well-known member
An AAA class post from Mr Potter.
I've dabbled in a few bunkers before seeing the light, and my inclination is for a rolling golf type handicap. The change in handicap would be determined by the difficulty of the shoot. I'm fairly sure that a spreadsheet wizard could work out a way of "moderating" scores such that an easy shoot would result in less handicap impact than a hard shoot.
The classes as such would disappear, although you can still band prizes according to a range of handicaps. So if our handicaps were ranged between 0 and, let's say 40. Top 20% 0-8 handicap, next class 9-16 handicap and so on.
My post crossed with Zoli, but that's exactly what I was trying to describe.
I've dabbled in a few bunkers before seeing the light, and my inclination is for a rolling golf type handicap. The change in handicap would be determined by the difficulty of the shoot. I'm fairly sure that a spreadsheet wizard could work out a way of "moderating" scores such that an easy shoot would result in less handicap impact than a hard shoot.
The classes as such would disappear, although you can still band prizes according to a range of handicaps. So if our handicaps were ranged between 0 and, let's say 40. Top 20% 0-8 handicap, next class 9-16 handicap and so on.
My post crossed with Zoli, but that's exactly what I was trying to describe.
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Definitely doable - it just needs a few 'raw' scores from shoots to play with to get the 'business rules' behind the model right. I could model that out on a list of scores.
Matt it really is that simple...you would have to use the top 3 or maybe even the top 5 scores as we all know that someone could post a silly high score that doesnt reflect the shoots difficulty. Ive one a few HG and really really tough shoots, i remember one a few years ago that I won on a 79 so does that make me A class ...No im AAA ....you could easily keep the bands we have in place now and adjust them each year on % ......but take each shoot on its own merit and each shooter would be classed on there performance that day.......a daily rolling average rather than twice a year...it really really isnt complicated. You could do it a stage further and use this system on shoots that on on for several days...ie a 75 in crap conditions could beat an 80 in perfect conditions...
Simples.
Simples.
Bob_P
Well-known member
If we had a good handicap system, why keep classes at all? The idea of a handicap system, if it was perfect, is that everyone would have the same handicapped score on the day. So if we took a base (standard scratch) of 100, and a handicap system running from scratch (0 handicap) to a max of 40. In theory we should see a progression of scores that genuinely reflect the shooters ability on the day. The prize structure then becomes very easy, you pay the top ten or however deep you want to go.
EdSolomons
Well-known member
Just use the points system for every shoot, as they do for national team selection. Easy or hard, problem solved.
