Setting the bar in ESP

[paul b]

If memory serves me right,i think one of the down south cup shoots had something like 30 people with a 90 plus score,surley that cant be a proper test of sporting skills ,more of a test of mental skills like skeet or dtl.

 

[ehb102]

isn't there a set of guidelines for registered shoot ESP course setters that say 50% birds for C class, 25% B class, 15% A class, 10% AA class? I am sure it was talked about here at one point but I'm blowed if I can find it.

Setting expectations is the thing. I've always said start shooting registereds when you can cope with putting in a low score. I hit 39 on my first one, which was excellent for having had a gun for a month. I felt terrible though because everyone else was better.  Friends have gone and spoken to me first and I've been able to say that 25 is pretty good at our standard, and they have carried on going to registereds and got better. 

So no, I don't think all shoots should be that tough. I don't have a problem with having tough shoots if we all know about it. Getting people to start shooting registereds is the hard part. If you don't pay heed to the constant need for new blood then you'll end up with a lot of experienced old shooters who will one day shuffle off the mortal coil leaving only a very few very talented younger people. 

Why would you include a very hard shoot in the averages if they don't meet the course setting guidelines? 

 

[Berkshire Breaker]

I have to admit that the fact there wasn't a single stand at WLSS yesterday, really was a bit to full on for lower classes.

Having said that I didn't see a single 'extreme' target there. So it was just a case of getting your head down and making every shot count!

I knew everyone was having a rough time out there (seeing Richard miss 7 or 8 on first two stands confirmed that)

I didn't see a single target that really got me worried but also nothing looked guaranteed!

I'm not one to worry about my average, I just try to get within 8 - 10 of the high gun each shoot I go to.

As you know I tend to shoot hard grounds only, Westfield - Owls - Four Counties - Southdown and an easier ground Churchills as it's local.

I'm not a massively experienced clay shooter as you no but I think yesterday was more about character strength and the mentality of keep grinding on every stand that helped me.

And I'm one of these people that like to push myself as far as possible, I enjoy shooting close technical targets as much as long ones. 

I don't mind if I shoot 70 or 95 as long as I'm not far from the HG mark.

But for beginners these sort of targets will demoralise them to the point of quitting.

So at the usual registered shoot they should ideally be a tad tamer. But this is the Premier League a major shoot. Would you complain at that stamp target at the British Open?

I honestly though the hardest shoot I've ever shot was the British Open Sporting & Sportrap last year, that course gave me a kickin but realised I needed to up my game.

 

[bugsey hogan]

Simple Phil, because not everybody shoots them, so those that don't get judged more easily by CPSA and get over-promoted in classification.

Don't see over promotion much of a problem folk shooting soft grounds for a high classifiction are only fooling themselves. Shooters deliberatly shooting tough grounds or putting in bad scores (if in fact it is done) to get and artificialy lower class with the idea of then going to clear up at a soft shoot would be akin to taking penneys of thier dead grandmothers eyes.

 

[move-mount-miss]

I've been thinking about this and come to the conclusion sporting shooting is unique in that all standards compete on the same course. A sport that takes place on a COURSE implies varying levels of difficulty, I'm thinking sailing, skiing, canoeing, horse racing, golf. Basically I can't think of a answer as the beauty of this sport is that a numpty like me can pay their entrance fee and pitch up against the best. All I can suggest is we turn up pay our money and hope the course setter was in a good mood but not too good.

 

[ips]

the reason dtl is so popular is because your average shooter likes to hit targets. OT is a frightener for many who cannot handle the speed and get demoralised with very low scores. I am new to esp but obviously not to shooting but I am finding certain targets ridiculously difficult and I for one would like the same target but closer or slower Or whatever so that I can at least hit it occasionally and work out how to shoot it, then I would move on to the same presentation but a bit harder and have a fighting chance. Shooting a fifty or something does not make you feel good about things. Take a leaf out of dtl and lets have softer version. If not I will shoot more skeet ?

 

[Bebo]

 Take a leaf out of dtl and lets have softer version. 

They do.  Lots of local open shoots and 'straw-balers' around for those of us not in A class and above.

 

[EdSolomons]

So if the harder than average ones are not classified so should the softer than average ones! Otherwise you are just giving people a pat on the head and falsely building them up.

keep it as it is, with a mix of grounds throwing a mix of birds and it all evens out in the end.

re making it easier more akin to DTL, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't DTL on its arse compared to sporting numbers wise? There are always steadier things to shoot at in club rounds and practice, most registered shoots are a step up from that but not drastically. If people want to go and hit big scores week in week out trap and skeet still exist for them to do so, but the fact of the matter is it appears more people like the challenge of sporting so let's not try and change it too much eh!

 

[bugsey hogan]

the reason dtl is so popular is because your average shooter likes to hit targets. OT is a frightener for many who cannot handle the speed and get demoralised with very low scores. I am new to esp but obviously not to shooting but I am finding certain targets ridiculously difficult and I for one would like the same target but closer or slower Or whatever so that I can at least hit it occasionally and work out how to shoot it, then I would move on to the same presentation but a bit harder and have a fighting chance. Shooting a fifty or something does not make you feel good about things. Take a leaf out of dtl and lets have softer version. If not I will shoot more skeet ?

I think you've got question and answer there ips. English skeet is the softer version of reg esp.Is there anything in between ? maybe pay and play available at many shooting grounds but personally as i've said elsewhere I find that as challenging as drinking tea. Have you tryed compak or sportrap. Just tryin to help. It's all about the challange and self improvement keep at it I would expect  a person like yourself  with your shooting experience will improve rapidly in fact I would put money on it.

 

[shootinguru]

Sporting and fitasc  you are there to be " entertained" to enjoy your days shooting! Yes there should be some tough targets but there has to be " bread and butter" targets also! the biggest classes in CPSA averages are B & C class if you piss them off you will loose over 50% of your shooters in a competition, there is your profit gone! I always advocate 1 med/soft target as 1st bird with 1 tougher target as the second bird, this should result in a C class shooter hitting 50% or more and the A & AA shooters winning with 90's +/-   Nobody wants to pay 38-40 quid to have the piss taken out of them.

 

[RobertBeard]

I think that there is a balance to be struck.  If you change registered shoots to be all macho and hard then numbers will drop off as those at the bottom end won't bother because they get beaten up by the course.  By all means have some harder shoots but surely these should be the Open and Championship events and selection shoots leading up to Home Internationals and Internationals.  Normal registered shoots should contain the mix of targets to suit all abilities.

Let's face it, it's not as if there are a load of people banging in scores of 100 with shoot-offs or shared prizes required.  If that starts to happen then you make it harder, put the targets further away, technically more difficult or make the clays smaller or more difficult with more simo pairs. 

Fine if you are in the home counties with plenty of places to go and shoot but more of a problem when shoots are few and far between.

I suspect grounds will continue to do their own thing to attract the numbers that they want at their shoots. 

I remember my first ever trip to Podimore, way before Don took it on and I was on my own as I was fairly new to the game and I can still remember those targets now and thinking the lead I was giving them when now I know I should have been thinking more in terms of barn doors than a yard or so!

 

[Will Hewland]

So if the harder than average ones are not classified so should the softer than average ones! Otherwise you are just giving people a pat on the head and falsely building them up.

Absolutely and I did actually mean to add that. It would be simple to come up for a system whereby CPSA would call a shoot "unsuitable to register" if the results came in outside a set of parameters. For example if more than 20% of the entry beat 90, or if more than 20% of the entry failed to hit 50.

 

[move-mount-miss]

Using A class would be more consistent as there could be a abnormal amount of newbies or an abnormal amount of top AAAs.

 

[Will Hewland]

Using A class would be more consistent as there could be a abnormal amount of newbies or an abnormal amount of top AAAs.

Yes, devil in the detail. This would probably be as simple as saying that it applies to shoots with over 60 entries and a minimum amount of people per class. Details would need working out. It would only be there to get rid of the occasional extreme shoot, up or down.

 

[Berkshire Breaker]

the reason dtl is so popular is because your average shooter likes to hit targets. OT is a frightener for many who cannot handle the speed and get demoralised with very low scores. I am new to esp but obviously not to shooting but I am finding certain targets ridiculously difficult and I for one would like the same target but closer or slower Or whatever so that I can at least hit it occasionally and work out how to shoot it, then I would move on to the same presentation but a bit harder and have a fighting chance. Shooting a fifty or something does not make you feel good about things. Take a leaf out of dtl and lets have softer version. If not I will shoot more skeet ?

That is exactly it. That's how I practice. I shoot tough registered shoots, find weaknesses then head to a practice ground to replicate that target. I shoot from an easier (closer) position and work my way back to where it was In the compertition.

I had awful trouble with Steve Lovatt's battues but worked on the at Owls Lodge for a few weeks and found a technique to shoot them. They don't represent to much issue anymore.

Then it was easy "Crow" targets! A 30 yard almost stationery target and I couldn't hit them! But a bit of work with Richard found I had lost all confidence in shooting them. And caused me to lift my head, resulting in missing high or to the side.

Targets don't have to be hard to be missed

 

[CharlesP]

A most interesting discussion. I have not had much experience of Registered ESP as yet - only a handful, all at the same ground. I would have thought that if the course designers aimed at a winning score by an AAA shot on a good day of mid nineties, with a fairly even spread downwards through the classes then that's fair enough.

There's little point in making a course so difficult that the winning score is in the low eighties, other than by accident (weather) - I for one would become a tad dispirited; the attraction of doing another one would be less. Major championships that don't count towards one's classification could be as tough as the host wishes, in fact they should be tough courses, after all it's better if the top competitors can be separated a bit.

Others have said that there are "straw balers" to cater for the less accomplished. Of course theirs may be a different customer base, attracting the proficient Sporting shooter all the way to the occasional pigeon shooter and wildfowler along for a weekend bit of fun. That's the way two of our local shoots do it, they want a winning score close to a straight, but they want the occasional shooter to have fun too. They cater for all customers, and the two that I attend round here do a pretty good job. Perhaps they should set the course so that it doesn't need an AAA shot to straight it but it would be a bit of a stretch for a C class.

Like so many things, so many activities, it's all about encouraging those that may follow, not putting barriers in the way to their enjoyment.

On the subject of classification, it's a bit of a conundrum that there are those that (I read here) only do the easier shoots in order to gain a more prestigious set of initials, and there are those who apparently artificially depress their scores and classifications in order to stay in a lower class so they can win more. I really don't know what anyone could do about that one!

 

[Rob C]

I thought that it was a fantastic shoot and would love for more or similar .

 The sporting discipline I presume is about simulating the various pastimes is:- grouse pigeon pheasant shooting who regularly does that and gets a 95 percent rate ?

I am only a B class shooter but would rather miss them targets all day long..

 

[Will Hewland]

It's not always the cunning behaviour of a shooter to be in the "wrong" class because of where they shoot. It can be that they just don't travel far for genuine reasons (time or money) and the nearby grounds are tough or easy. There are some blokes that should be down a class who live near Horne and there are some very good B class Oxford / glocs blokes who mostly shoot Westfield etc.

 

[tiptop]

Premier and premier+ grounds = the premier league, not premier shooters. I thought the point of it was to encourage the lower ranks to join in, and with the handicap system it gives them the chance to compete for the top prize at the end of the series. I never considered this to be a major competition either, because it is 5 best scores out of 8 to count at the end.

This shoot was set a fair bit tougher than your normal registered shoots to say the least, but it was what it was. 340+ entries and only down to joint 84th managed a score that was above the cut off point to go from C to B class.

I personally don't think the bar for registered shoots needs to moved at all. If people are content to shoot 1 or  2 shoots to be AA then so be it. 

Shoot your own game and get on with it.

 

[Nimbusgb]

This brings to mind my comments last year. Each shoot should have an adjustment fitted in post processing. If half the field scores 95 plus it was a soft shoot so returned 'averages' should reflect that. If no one cracks 90 it was a tough day and everyone needs a correction added.

Will, I'd be ticked off if my entry into a registered shoot was discarded entirely as you suggested because the shoot was too hard or too soft.

I lept into competitive shooting right from the start so in my opinion getting 40's was a motivation and did not put me off competing at all.