Setting the bar in ESP

[maddmatt]

An average is just that, so tougher shoots like this are needed to balance out the softer shoots that we all know are out there without naming names.

the problem I see with people moaning about seeing big stuff is that you won't get better at it by not shooting it. 

I wasn't there (working) but have spoken to several people from various classes and the general consensus was positive. It has shown up some technical weaknesses which is great.

one thing that came back several times was it was nice to feel you had to work to hit them, as opposed to trying not to miss them!

personally although this sounds at the tougher end of the scale I think this is closer to where reg shoots should be as opposed to the current trend for big scores without having served an apprenticeship so to speak.

What Ed said...

Although I understand the dilemma that ground owners face, every Sunday they have to set a balanced course, one that the serious shooter will find challenging but a course that will not destroy the enjoyment of the regulars. The answer is pretty obvious, alternate your weekend shoots on the ground, so 1st Sunday is a registered shoot, the next sunday is an open, where it doesn't really matter if it is softer.

The perception of shoots is always quite interesting, if I see a target that the very top shots in the Country can't hit, then that target should be changed, conversely if the target looks like if has come from a very soft corporate shoot then the same rule applies. Just glad I don't have to set courses every Sunday, what a thankless task! BEst left to the course setters that know how to put on a good course - you know who you are...  :afro:

 

[Hamster]

Interesting couple of days reading about big attendance shoots where one was deemed boring/too easy and another as kin hard. I can totally sympathise with someone like Steve Lovatt asking others views on a Compak layout where 10 yard targets tested your will to live  :mellow:  and another shoot where a field of 360 that included several World Champions produced an 89 for HG ! 

I personally do not like close targets as apart form being boring they do nothing for you when you hit them unless you can count turning sideways to avoid splinters as a skill, nor do I think it's clever setting up 12 borderline stands and two tricky ones. To pretend that this shoot wasn't OTT is missing the point of what the majority go shooting for. 

In my opinion there is no real harm in having the odd OTT layout, you shouldn't take averages too seriously anyway unless you're truly in a position to fight for recognition of the Top Twenty or something BUT do not be under any illusions that these shoots will not prove to be financially viable if they attempt to become routine. 

Shooting excellence requires a dozen or so learned skills such as correct mounting, correct address, correctly reading the targets, correctly deciding the order of kill, tempo, breathing, zoning, concentrating, etc, etc, etc, once these are mastered (such as is the case with the top 50 in the country) then it isn't unreasonable to expect to hit close to perfect scores on most stands. If this cannot be attained even by such people then it is clear that they're being beaten by design - and that isn't clever. 

You have to remember the overall cost of a days registered shooting, often you need to factor in the days lost wages if held on a day other than a Sunday, you then need to ask yourself whether bravado aside, will hundreds travel to get demoralised ? 

 

[Will Hewland]

This brings to mind my comments last year. Each shoot should have an adjustment fitted in post processing. If half the field scores 95 plus it was a soft shoot so returned 'averages' should reflect that. If no one cracks 90 it was a tough day and everyone needs a correction added.

Will, I'd be ticked off if my entry into a registered shoot was discarded entirely as you suggested because the shoot was too hard or too soft.

I lept into competitive shooting right from the start so in my opinion getting 40's was a motivation and did not put me off competing at all.

Forget having a correction factor to scores. Most shooters are baffled by how the classification system works as it is. Add in some "imponderable" and that will be the last straw for them. Whatever the answer is it needs to be very simple. (This doesn't mean that I think your idea is daft per se Ian). 

 

[Jonny English]

We do the majority of our shooting at Pinewoods at Blyton in Lincolnshire run by Alan Lawson, top bloke and a very good practise ground. He runs the Claymate system and has 9 stands with 4 traps on each, so has plenty of variety. When we speak to him if he doesn't put an easy round on the natives complain and won't come and play. We love his harder birds, but he openly admits if he hasn't got a lot of easy stands his earnings suffer. His hard stands such as the crossing partridge stand he fills the traps once a fortnight, the sitting crow stands within 30 yards he fills twice a day!

 

[Will Hewland]

We do the majority of our shooting at Pinewoods at Blyton in Lincolnshire run by Alan Lawson, top bloke and a very good practise ground. He runs the Claymate system and has 9 stands with 4 traps on each, so has plenty of variety. When we speak to him if he doesn't put an easy round on the natives complain and won't come and play. We love his harder birds, but he openly admits if he hasn't got a lot of easy stands his earnings suffer. His hard stands such as the crossing partridge stand he fills the traps once a fortnight, the sitting crow stands within 30 yards he fills twice a day!

I live a few hundred yards from the worst clay shoot in the country. I went once 7 years ago. You cannot believe how crap. Some sim pairs at 5 yards that you could batter with a broom, or a handful of gravel. Stands so close together that you have to call pull on one and Mark on the other so the trapper knows if you mean him. Hardly gets changed at all. It's been going for years and years and there is queueing. There are people who are just fascinated to see any clay break. 

 

[ips]

That is exactly it. That's how I practice. I shoot tough registered shoots, find weaknesses then head to a practice ground to replicate that target. I shoot from an easier (closer) position and work my way back to where it was In the compertition.

I had awful trouble with Steve Lovatt's battues but worked on the at Owls Lodge for a few weeks and found a technique to shoot them. They don't represent to much issue anymore.

Then it was easy "Crow" targets! A 30 yard almost stationery target and I couldn't hit them! But a bit of work with Richard found I had lost all confidence in shooting them. And caused me to lift my head, resulting in missing high or to the side.

Targets don't have to be hard to be missed

good point I suppose when you have experienced a few grounds maybe you know were a similar but easier target is to the one you struggle on and can go there to learn it then move on.

 

[Berkshire Breaker]

good point I suppose when you have experienced a few grounds maybe you know were a similar but easier target is to the one you struggle on and can go there to learn it then move on.

yeah. I ask Richard at Owls to move a trap to replicate that exact target. And shoot it a few hundred times until I've got it into my head how to shoot them.

it can be extremely boring or frustrating but it works in the end

 

[ips]

I think you've got question and answer there ips. English skeet is the softer version of reg esp.Is there anything in between ? maybe pay and play available at many shooting grounds but personally as i've said elsewhere I find that as challenging as drinking tea. Have you tryed compak or sportrap. Just tryin to help. It's all about the challange and self improvement keep at it I would expect  a person like yourself  with your shooting experience will improve rapidly in fact I would put money on it.

your faith is encouraging and I thank you for it

 

[Steve Lovatt]

Stick with me William I!!!!! It's all about reliability , variety , and balance  which we do very well !!!! 

 

[Jaykaysea]

Interesting couple of days reading about big attendance shoots where one was deemed boring/too easy and another as kin hard. I can totally sympathise with someone like Steve Lovatt asking others views on a Compak layout where 10 yard targets tested your will to live  :mellow:  and another shoot where a field of 360 that included several World Champions produced an 89 for HG ! 

Can I just point out that the Compak was NOT easy...it was in fact the hardest Compak I have shot to date...you only have to look at the scores to see it was a lot harder than a normal Compak when all the top shots are in the 90's....

Plenty of people missed those targets on the end of your barrels but as there were only two targets in that category out of 24, and it was maybe 10 out of the 100 it hardly made the whole shoot boring....think some of them were borderline outside the box but that's a different story where the wind had changed and there isn't much you can do about that....

Personally I enjoyed the Compak, and I think we would all do well to remember that it is people like you and I who set up these shoots...public praise and private criticism is a good mantra to live by...having seen a little of what goes into putting on a shoot it is not so easy to get it spot on every time and no one goes out of their way to make a shoot really hard or really easy...it's a tough job and if no one did it we'd have nothing to shoot at at all..... 

 

[Hamster]

Yes I accept close doesn't mean easy but I took Steve's expression "losing the will to live" as really conveying the lack of excitement factor. 

 

[ips]

as esp is in effect random as in no set target presentation shoot what your given sort of thing it must be extremely difficult to put on a balanced shoot that will tax the most proficient but also keep the masses happy with hitable targets. I have always considered the whole thing very odd, perhaps each ground should be given a sort of handicap a bit like golf courses and there par thing

 

[philmoss]

I live a few hundred yards from the worst clay shoot in the country. I went once 7 years ago. You cannot believe how crap. Some sim pairs at 5 yards that you could batter with a broom, or a handful of gravel. Stands so close together that you have to call pull on one and Mark on the other so the trapper knows if you mean him. Hardly gets changed at all. It's been going for years and years and there is queueing. There are people who are just fascinated to see any clay break. 

Didnt know you live in Suffolk !!!!!

Can I just point out that the Compak was NOT easy...it was in fact the hardest Compak I have shot to date...you only have to look at the scores to see it was a lot harder than a normal Compak when all the top shots are in the 90's....

Plenty of people missed those targets on the end of your barrels but as there were only two targets in that category out of 24, and it was maybe 10 out of the 100 it hardly made the whole shoot boring....think some of them were borderline outside the box but that's a different story where the wind had changed and there isn't much you can do about that....

Personally I enjoyed the Compak, and I think we would all do well to remember that it is people like you and I who set up these shoots...public praise and private criticism is a good mantra to live by...having seen a little of what goes into putting on a shoot it is not so easy to get it spot on every time and no one goes out of their way to make a shoot really hard or really easy...it's a tough job and if no one did it we'd have nothing to shoot at at all..... 

Are you availible to set up this weekend !!!!!!!

 

[Jaykaysea]

Yes I accept close doesn't mean easy but I took Steve's expression "losing the will to live" as really conveying the lack of excitement factor. 

It was layout 4....look at the scores...I counted 5 straights....it was not easy.....but it would have been exciting if you had hit them all and got a 25.....Especially as it was a single and two SIM pairs....and the close ones you didn't have very much time to hit them both

Sorry Hamster, I'm not having a go at you...but Steve aside it was the layout that everyone was talking about and saying....going and look at it before you shoot,...yeah it was really easy I should have got 25....oops actually I didn't..........

And Steve I'm not having a go at you either....if we all liked the same things then we really would lose the will to live....?

Are you availible to set up this weekend !!!!!!!

You couldn't afford me..... ?

 

[philmoss]

It was layout 4....look at the scores...I counted 5 straights....it was not easy.....but it would have been exciting if you had hit them all and got a 25.....Especially as it was a single and two SIM pairs....and the close ones you didn't have very much time to hit them both

Sorry Hamster, I'm not having a go at you...but Steve aside it was the layout that everyone was talking about and saying....going and look at it before you shoot,...yeah it was really easy I should have got 25....oops actually I didn't..........

And Steve I'm not having a go at you either....if we all liked the same things then we really would lose the will to live....?

You couldn't afford me..... ?

:baby: :baby:

 

[DoubleBarrelledDon]

Im probably going to regret commenting but...... 

In answer to Wills question... No, I dont think all shoots should be at that level.  Jamie Peckham said to me a while ago.. "Never forget you are there to provide entertainment, not to send people home feeling miserable" and as he is arguably one of the finest course setters we have produced I think he has a good point.

There seems to be a common theme these days where if a shoot isnt blisteringly tough then its "soft rubbish" However its interesting how people talk about this argument on social media.... Shooter X goes to a shoot and get his backside kicked into the middle of next month.... they then go onto social media and say how great a shoot it was etc etc.... I do wonder how many of those comments are attributed to not wanting to look like they are bothered that the couse setter took a cat o nine tails to them and im sure some people are saying one thing when they actually feel the opposite just so that the macho brigade wont call them a wimp.

So lets say that Joe Bloggs hasnt been shooting long, he goes out and shoots maybe 50 targets twice a month at his local small club... he gets to a point where he can shoot 65 or 70 percent so then trotts off to his local registered ground and shoots a 41 on a tough shoot thats won on an 89..... so he has spent his entire monthly shooting budget on one event and hated every second of it... is he likely to go back? no......

Whatever the targets the cream will rise to the top and whether its won on an 83 or a 99 it will be the same people in the mix so why humiliate the guys at the bottom end? Their money is just as good as the AA guys and arguably its better commercially as there are a lot more of them. WLSS in my opinion though I can only go on what I have heard overreacted to the criticism they recieved last year, also there had been some very vocal comments on last years Compak supposedly being too soft so I suspect that a similar thing happened at Barbury.  Though i suspect that if it hadnt been so cold the scores would have been higher at both events, however the argument could be made that if it was expected to be adverse conditions it might have been an idea to soften it up a little.....

People who say Compak is too soft shouldnt shoot it.. simple as that... the discipline is designed to be won on massive scores and theres little point in putting on big targets to select people to shoot in an International event where everything is round your ears..,. we have been making that mistake in FITASC shoots in the UK for years, ie practising for targets that you will very rarely see in a World or European shoot...

Before anyone says Im a fan of Supersoft targets can I just say I shot Dubai both years, shot it pretty well, managed to bag a scalp or two and loved every second of it. Because.... I knew it was going to be very tough so I adjusted my expectations accordingly... If you want to put on a hard shoot make sure everyone knows so that they can make a choice and spend their hard earned cash accordingly.  Perhaps ground owners should publish their predicted HG score a few days beforehand so at least people have an idea what to expect.....

 

[Will Hewland]

Im probably going to regret commenting but...... 

In answer to Wills question... No, I dont think all shoots should be at that level.  Jamie Peckham said to me a while ago.. "Never forget you are there to provide entertainment, not to send people home feeling miserable" and as he is arguably one of the finest course setters we have produced I think he has a good point.

There seems to be a common theme these days where if a shoot isnt blisteringly tough then its "soft rubbish" However its interesting how people talk about this argument on social media.... Shooter X goes to a shoot and get his backside kicked into the middle of next month.... they then go onto social media and say how great a shoot it was etc etc.... I do wonder how many of those comments are attributed to not wanting to look like they are bothered that the couse setter took a cat o nine tails to them and im sure some people are saying one thing when they actually feel the opposite just so that the macho brigade wont call them a wimp.

So lets say that Joe Bloggs hasnt been shooting long, he goes out and shoots maybe 50 targets twice a month at his local small club... he gets to a point where he can shoot 65 or 70 percent so then trotts off to his local registered ground and shoots a 41 on a tough shoot thats won on an 89..... so he has spent his entire monthly shooting budget on one event and hated every second of it... is he likely to go back? no......

Whatever the targets the cream will rise to the top and whether its won on an 83 or a 99 it will be the same people in the mix so why humiliate the guys at the bottom end? Their money is just as good as the AA guys and arguably its better commercially as there are a lot more of them. WLSS in my opinion though I can only go on what I have heard overreacted to the criticism they recieved last year, also there had been some very vocal comments on last years Compak supposedly being too soft so I suspect that a similar thing happened at Barbury.  Though i suspect that if it hadnt been so cold the scores would have been higher at both events, however the argument could be made that if it was expected to be adverse conditions it might have been an idea to soften it up a little.....

People who say Compak is too soft shouldnt shoot it.. simple as that... the discipline is designed to be won on massive scores and theres little point in putting on big targets to select people to shoot in an International event where everything is round your ears..,. we have been making that mistake in FITASC shoots in the UK for years, ie practising for targets that you will very rarely see in a World or European shoot...

Before anyone says Im a fan of Supersoft targets can I just say I shot Dubai both years, shot it pretty well, managed to bag a scalp or two and loved every second of it. Because.... I knew it was going to be very tough so I adjusted my expectations accordingly... If you want to put on a hard shoot make sure everyone knows so that they can make a choice and spend their hard earned cash accordingly.  Perhaps ground owners should publish their predicted HG score a few days beforehand so at least people have an idea what to expect.....

Fantastic post.

So right about expectation at a shoot too. I would love to shoot WLSS course again now, knowing that an 80 would be a great score if I could do it.

 

[DoubleBarrelledDon]

Just as an example... and not in the interests of a blatant commercial plug.... if you DO want your backside kicked then come to our "Nearly Al Sheba" shoot at Podimore... if anyone shoots more than 85 I will be surprised.... .

 

[tiptop]

You get one of these shoots pop up now and again. you either shoot it well, and well done to those that did, or you shoot it s**t like most of us did on this occasion. Walk away its done and finished.

Should we raise the bar to this level to satisfy a few people?? It would interesting to see if a ground fancies taking the mantel on, shoot after shoot. Probably be committing financial suicide.

 

[Will Hewland]

You get one of these shoots pop up now and again. you either shoot it well, and well done to those that did, or you shoot it s**t like most of us did on this occasion. Walk away its done and finished.

Should we raise the bar to this level to satisfy a few people?? It would interesting to see if a ground fancies taking the mantel on, shoot after shoot. Probably be committing financial suicide.

All discussion about personal achievement etc. aside, my first thought was how big will the entry be at the next round. It will be a huge shame if it is low because WLSS was not of mass appeal. That won't be EJ Churchills fault and I'm sure their event will be well balanced. And a great chance to shoot on the estate..