To see, or not to see...

[Hermit]

...lead??

That is the question.

We all know a "I don't see lead" shooter and similarly know plenty who know how many feet respective targets need.

Me personally, sometimes I do and sometimes I don't...but I'm less comfortable with the concept of not seeing lead because I don't see how I can replicate a successful shot if I don't know what I did (or how much lead I applied) in the first place??

There is of course far more to replicating a successful shot than just sight picture at the moment you pull the trigger but how important is recognising that picture, in the scheme of things? 

Or do we work hard to replicate the set-up process, steady motion/speed, method etc and then rely on the autonomous process to pull the trigger when the correct lead is applied??

All thoughts welcome.

 

[Jonny English]

I'm in the seeing the lead camp. I see some form of lead on most targets, even if it's just the front edge of the clay out to 15 yards of lead.

One of my main problems is having good movement for the first target, seeing say 3 feet, then get comfy and complacent give the next one 3 feet but lose gun speed and miss behind. Everything else also needs to be in place to replicate.

One book that I read that was good for repeatability was Lesley Goddards shooting secrets. She goes massively into repeatability and POSR (Perfect one shot routine) this is mainly based around trap disciplines but it can be applied to sporting with little tweaks. Precision and repeatability is key.

 

[Jan Powell]

...lead??

That is the question.

We all know a "I don't see lead" shooter and similarly know plenty who know how many feet respective targets need.

Me personally, sometimes I do and sometimes I don't...but I'm less comfortable with the concept of not seeing lead because I don't see how I can replicate a successful shot if I don't know what I did (or how much lead I applied) in the first place??

There is of course far more to replicating a successful shot than just sight picture at the moment you pull the trigger but how important is recognising that picture, in the scheme of things? 

Or do we work hard to replicate the set-up process, steady motion/speed, method etc and then reply on the autonomous process to pull the trigger when the correct lead is applied??

All thoughts welcome.

Yes, I see lead but only vaguely. Lead is one of (many) subjects shooters get unnecessarily worked up over. So long as your head is on the gun and your eyes on the target your brain will do the rest. In any event you’re putting out a pattern 1-2 feet wide so lead’s never that critical.

By the way, I’d recommend Lesley’s book to any competitive shooter, especially those shooting trap and skeet. It really helps reinforce solid fundamentals.

 

[Will Hewland]

Sporting targets that need big lead cannot be shot consistently without seeing the gap. (Maybe in trap the lead is small and the timing is necessarily fast so it isn’t a thing).

I'm in the seeing the lead camp. I see some form of lead on most targets, even if it's just the front edge of the clay out to 15 yards of lead.

15 feet of lead? A clay needing 15 yards is so far away the pellets will land on the floor before they get there.

My mate just won C class by a mile at Westfield because he finally kept the gun moving. Previously he was putting the right lead on, but slowing as he shot, ruining his scores. I’ve actually never seen a turnaround in somebody’s scores by taking onboard one tip so well. So while seeing the gap is important, you do need to behave similarly each time, in terms of slightly slowing, maintaining, or increasing your speed as you pull the trigger or it’s all random. 

 

[Westward]

Sporting targets that need big lead cannot be shot consistently without seeing the gap.

That makes sense to me.

I don't claim to be any great shakes at shooting, but after 40+ years as an IT analyst I know how to unzip a dodgy theory - usually with a question.

In this scenario I would ask the "I don't see lead" claimant how they correct for the next shot if they fail to break the target. e.g. "Having just missed the target, how do you add or subtract lead if you don't know how much you applied first time"?

 

[Will Hewland]

That makes sense to me.

I don't claim to be any great shakes at shooting, but after 40+ years as an IT analyst I know how to unzip a dodgy theory - usually with a question.

In this scenario I would ask the "I don't see lead" claimant how they correct for the next shot if they fail to break the target. e.g. "Having just missed the target, how do you add or subtract lead if you don't know how much you applied first time"?

The answer would be with gun-speed I assume. The shot leaves the gun just after the shooter thinks it does, hence speeding away from the target establishes a gap seemingly after the trigger is pulled. But you need an amazing ability to replicate and adjust speed to make it work. Much easier to get a visual signal on a long target IMO.

 

[Hermit]

Great feedback folks.

Thanks.

 

[Jonny English]

Sporting targets that need big lead cannot be shot consistently without seeing the gap. (Maybe in trap the lead is small and the timing is necessarily fast so it isn’t a thing).

15 feet of lead? A clay needing 15 yards is so far away the pellets will land on the floor before they get there.

My mate just won C class by a mile at Westfield because he finally kept the gun moving. Previously he was putting the right lead on, but slowing as he shot, ruining his scores. I’ve actually never seen a turnaround in somebody’s scores by taking onboard one tip so well. So while seeing the gap is important, you do need to behave similarly each time, in terms of slightly slowing, maintaining, or increasing your speed as you pull the trigger or it’s all random. 

The 15 yard of lead was at Sporting targets high tower challenge this year. Gravel pit at the far end, furthest peg in the corner, low tower, orange looper fired fast from the tower diving into the ground behind the hedge. Shot it twice in a row with an insane gap. To be fair the gun movement was low as you had no time to shoot it, so you picked a spot and just blipped the gun.

 

[k80ben]

Seeing the lead / barrel is vital. Measuring the space to be repetitive again vital 

the fundamentals solid to allow same lead to be seen vital
 

Keeping the gun moving isn’t vital at all. 
 

I’ve seen 20ft + on clay targets biggest ever was 25ft on a target on the shoot off for the world fitasc. 

 

[MJJ]

Keeping the gun moving isn’t vital at all. 

Do you not advocate following through at all then? No dirty remarks please!!!!!

 

[k80ben]

Do you not advocate following through at all then? No dirty remarks please!!!!!

Check my latest videos from today on fb 

 

[Will Hewland]

Seeing the lead / barrel is vital. Measuring the space to be repetitive again vital 

the fundamentals solid to allow same lead to be seen vital
 

Keeping the gun moving isn’t vital at all. 
 

I’ve seen 20ft + on clay targets biggest ever was 25ft on a target on the shoot off for the world fitasc. 

Keeping the gun moving isn’t vital if you’re allowing for it. If you only just have enough lead it is of course vital, but equally you can shoot a big gap with diminishing lead of course. Either way, you need to combine a visual picture of lead with a gun movement, whether that’s static, stopping or moving away.  (Obviously Ben, I’m not telling you.. I’m expanding on it for general readers). 

 

[Will Hewland]

Deleted post. Maths got too complicated for me. 

 

[Jan Powell]

Deleted post. Maths got too complicated for me. 

Which brings me nicely back to my point:

Lead is one of (many) subjects shooters get unnecessarily worked up over.

 

[Jonny English]

Deleted post. Maths got too complicated for me. 

Maybe I'm being a little heavy handed with 15 yards, might have been 10, i know i had to shoot at it as it appeared from the trap and it broke just before it disdapeared behind the hedge. Usually pretty good good judge with distances, but could have just felt more than it was. I do know I've never seen a gap that big before. Had to force my brain to pull the trigger before it thought was comfortable.

 

[Will Hewland]

Maybe I'm being a little heavy handed with 15 yards, might have been 10, i know i had to shoot at it as it appeared from the trap and it broke just before it disdapeared behind the hedge. Usually pretty good good judge with distances, but could have just felt more than it was. I do know I've never seen a gap that big before. Had to force my brain to pull the trigger before it thought was comfortable.

A shed load of lead as we sometimes say..

At the world champs shoot off at EJC years ago, there were some bonkers targets. A huge crosser that I think only Richard Faulds hit. I asked how much lead he gave it. He hesitated, then looked at the grandstand I had been sat in and said “about that much”. It was a good 30 foot long.

 

[k80ben]

I think the biggest problem. Is people who can’t shoot sporting giving advice on lead. Lead is the be all and end all. 
 

can’t be over complicated 

 

[MJJ]

Check my latest videos from today on fb 

 I do not use fb. A simple yes or no would have sufficed.

 

[BerettaDan]

 I do not use fb. A simple yes or no would have sufficed.

Ben also posts quite a few of his tutorial videos on YouTube too. I know I’ve seen quite a few, though I don’t think I’ve seen him talk about lead…..yet.