Abuse of Referees

[Salopian]

Well I have thought long and hard before writing this , but offer it for discussion.

We are all spending a lot money on pursuing our hobby because of increasing prices on the various elements , cartridges , guns , fuel , entries etc.

That being said we rely on Referees giving their time and being unable to compete to monitor our sport .

But I am becoming increasingly concerned about the vile foul mouthed abuse that some of us are being subjected to often brought about by the competitors target incompetence and the referee observing the rules.

Last weekend I refereed the Perazzi Gran Prix at Mid Wales , stand 9 Red Course was a Driven pair off a telehoist . It clearly stated 4 Pairs Sim Driven . In addition I politely informed every squad that the targets must be shot Driven not as crossers by turning sideways in the cage . Two competitors used foul and abusive language  because they were unable to shoot clay driven towards them and implied it was all my fault .

May I point out that The Referee is in charge of the stand and the competitor will comply with the referees instruction.

It was later found out that one of the ' Gentlemen ' had entered as a 'C' class shooter but was subsequently found to be 'A' class and in view of his conduct was disqualified.

For those of you who quote CPSA rules , make sure that you are conversant with them.

I am.

 

[shortlegs]

Salopian  You did indeed politely explain the targets and how they were to be shot very clearly before any of our squad started  when we shot it on Friday ( not that I shot it very well :umbrage: )  sorry to hear that you received abuse when just stating the rules of the stand you and the other refs were there for the benefit of the shooters not to be abused.!  if it wasn't for the good people like yourself who give their time to ref we wouldn't have the competitions !!  If the said shooter was that experienced they should have known better name and shame as you don't need abuse . 

 

[Doug Pinnegar]

It genuinely baffles me as to why people conduct themselves like that. 

I've stood up for referees when people are trying to intimidate them to get birds on their card or to see extra birds before shooting. It really annoys me when people bend the rules/cheat and use their size to intimidate young teenagers who are so vital to our sporting running the way it does. Just this weekend Four Counties have had to cancel their shoot due to a lack of refs.

 

[Will Hewland]

“ In addition I politely informed every squad that the targets must be shot Driven not as crossers by turning sideways in the cage . “

Peter, was this stipulated by the course setter, rather than you just thinking it was a good policy? if so, I think it’s an awkward rule. What if a shooter uses a hybrid method? It’s all too fiddly IMO. I reckon set the cage up, perhaps with a bar overhead, if you want to guide the shooters method. 

In any event the shooter shouldn’t be rude or whatever! But it’s best not to have a controversial rule. I’ve seen ruckass caused by a small post as a limit for a rabbit. Row about was it shot before or not, all because shooter and ref have different angle of view. Eliminate the problem with a solid board or huge log. 

 

[Sian]

“ In addition I politely informed every squad that the targets must be shot Driven not as crossers by turning sideways in the cage . “

Peter, was this stipulated by the course setter, rather than you just thinking it was a good policy? if so, I think it’s an awkward rule. What if a shooter uses a hybrid method? It’s all too fiddly IMO. I reckon set the cage up, perhaps with a bar overhead, if you want to guide the shooters method. 

In any event the shooter shouldn’t be rude or whatever! But it’s best not to have a controversial rule. I’ve seen ruckass caused by a small post as a limit for a rabbit. Row about was it shot before or not, all because shooter and ref have different angle of view. Eliminate the problem with a solid board or huge log. 

I shot it and Peter did explain the rules and I did ask if I could turn my barrels with my body straight (which is not taking it as a classic crosser) which he said was fine.  Funny though I didn't do it in the end and subsequently got 2 ..  No excuse for being rude to the ref at all.

 

[Jeremy Baker]

Peter although I back you in the contemptible use  of abuse to you or anyone whilst shooting, I am struggling to see how a referee can stipulate the method in which a target is shot unless the menu dictates a limit for safety reasons?

Nice to see you last night although only realised it was you as we walked away 

 

[Hamster]

Zero tolerance for abusive language towards the ref, can't understand how or why the other squad members tolerate it and as for entering C despite being an A class shooter  who does that ? 

FWIW when it comes to this particular "rule" I'm firmly of the belief that as long as it is safe (granted sometimes shot fall is the reason) then the shooter ought to be allowed to use his own method. 

 

[Will Hewland]

Peter although I back you in the contemptible use  of abuse to you or anyone whilst shooting, I am struggling to see how a referee can stipulate the method in which a target is shot unless the menu dictates a limit for safety reasons?

Yes, my point is that the burden shouldn’t be on the ref to impose a controversial rule. Make the cage or other aspects of the layout dictate what must happen.

 

[Salopian]

Well here we go , good comments from Will & Jeremy , but easily answered .

General Rules 3.2 

Referee shall ensure that the competitors comply with and compete according to all rules; and ensure that the equity of the competition is maintained at all times.

3.7

The Referee will make a decision on whether a target is 'Hit ' 'Lost'  or 'No-Target' on these matters the Referees decision is final and mark the decision on the squad or score sheet.

Many of you may remember a similar incident last Year at Hodnet with a Driven Target where shooting it as a crosser dropped pellets on another stand to the right .

In both instances a sign was displayed that clearly read 'Driven'  NOT Crosser  or Teal or Going Away .

One complainant asked "show me where the CPSA rules stipulate that I must shoot it in front and not to the side." 

General Rule 3.2  Applies 

We are here to run a safe fair shoot to enable everyone to compete on an open and level playing field .

 Yes I must agree that Rabbit limits need to be clearly defined by a log or bale but there is no excuse for rudeness and being argumentive .

At the weekend it clearly stated 'Driven' every squad was informed and all but two competitors complied . It was at the Course setters Instruction and the Ground Owners insistance who told me I was in charge and he would back me to the end . I did not complain to anyone or the organisers about the abuse but fellow competitors did , that's when they found out matey boy who was an 'A' class shot had deliberately entered in 'C' class .

It is all very simple really, Rules are Rules and Referees are in charge of the stand.

 

[schmokinn]

Well here we go , good comments from Will & Jeremy , but easily answered .

General Rules 3.2 

Referee shall ensure that the competitors comply with and compete according to all rules; and ensure that the equity of the competition is maintained at all times.

3.7

The Referee will make a decision on whether a target is 'Hit ' 'Lost'  or 'No-Target' on these matters the Referees decision is final and mark the decision on the squad or score sheet.

Many of you may remember a similar incident last Year at Hodnet with a Driven Target where shooting it as a crosser dropped pellets on another stand to the right .

In both instances a sign was displayed that clearly read 'Driven'  NOT Crosser  or Teal or Going Away .

One complainant asked "show me where the CPSA rules stipulate that I must shoot it in front and not to the side." 

General Rule 3.2  Applies 

We are here to run a safe fair shoot to enable everyone to compete on an open and level playing field .

 Yes I must agree that Rabbit limits need to be clearly defined by a log or bale but there is no excuse for rudeness and being argumentive .

At the weekend it clearly stated 'Driven' every squad was informed and all but two competitors complied . It was at the Course setters Instruction and the Ground Owners insistance who told me I was in charge and he would back me to the end . I did not complain to anyone or the organisers about the abuse but fellow competitors did , that's when they found out matey boy who was an 'A' class shot had deliberately entered in 'C' class .

It is all very simple really, Rules are Rules and Referees are in charge of the stand.

Should name and shame them,the shooting community would ensure that they don't do it again!

I do not see the issue with being instructed to shoot targets in a certain way if that is what the course designer intended and it is therefore fair for all as everyone has done the same.

If targets mean that much to someone they should spend time improving there technique not trying to make them fit their skillset.

 

[Will Hewland]

The “problem” with the instruction to shoot in a different way is interpretation and confrontation. Aggro for the ref if you like. I would cure the cause not deal with the issue. Put bars on cage etc.

 

[westley]

It genuinely baffles me as to why people conduct themselves like that. 

I've stood up for referees when people are trying to intimidate them to get birds on their card or to see extra birds before shooting. It really annoys me when people bend the rules/cheat and use their size to intimidate young teenagers who are so vital to our sporting running the way it does. Just this weekend Four Counties have had to cancel their shoot due to a lack of refs.

I think you will find that they go through life acting in that manner. They will be the one's hurling abuse from the safety of their little mechanical tin boxes, the same one's that exit  or enter a Motorway from the outside lane or fly down the hard shoulder to avoid hold ups (usually in something with a German badge !)  I can recall that whilst shooting a Police Comp at Beverley several years ago,  a certain plonker decided to abuse the Ref over a very similar thing, regarding the point at which the target was actually shot. The Ref complained to the Organisers and the offender was not just disqualified from the entire Competition (3 day event) BUT was also banned from further Comps for 2 years. As a result of this albeit a bit harsh punishment, there was no further Ref abuse at any Police/ Military shoots.  Maybe the CPSA would be well advised to follow suit  ? 

 

[Will Hewland]

I think you will find that they go through life acting in that manner. They will be the one's hurling abuse from the safety of their little mechanical tin boxes, the same one's that exit  or enter a Motorway from the outside lane or fly down the hard shoulder to avoid hold ups (usually in something with a German badge !)  I can recall that whilst shooting a Police Comp at Beverley several years ago,  a certain plonker decided to abuse the Ref over a very similar thing, regarding the point at which the target was actually shot. The Ref complained to the Organisers and the offender was not just disqualified from the entire Competition (3 day event) BUT was also banned from further Comps for 2 years. As a result of this albeit a bit harsh punishment, there was no further Ref abuse at any Police/ Military shoots.  Maybe the CPSA would be well advised to follow suit  ? 

The CPSA seem VERY reticent to ban anybody. One particular plonker, banned from this site, is now finding himself banned from two shooting grounds in the south. But it is up to individual grounds it seems. 

 

[OlafUK]

Salopian, is this more prevalent in certain disciplines? I’ve reffed Skeet and Trap disciplines and never had an issue, but wondered if its more common in Sporting due to the presentation and variation of targets?

 

[Salopian]

Olaf,

 It has been an issue in possibly  every discipline , although I personally do not know of one in FITASC. Certainly I do know of physical assault in English Skeet , DTL and regularly in Sporting..

For Will Hewland's information bars were fitted to the cage and they were told to not turn sideways in the cage and to shoot in front or up above .

Footnote I know of Skeet shooters and DTL shooters who have assaulted Referees and shoot for England , so CPSA are probably ineffectual. Maybe times are changing though?

 

[westley]

Salopian, is this more prevalent in certain disciplines? I’ve reffed Skeet and Trap disciplines and never had an issue, but wondered if its more common in Sporting due to the presentation and variation of targets?

Ah,  BUT,  the Skeet shooters have probably all nodded off and the Trap shooters are too busy looking for the Guy with an auto  !          :angel:

 

[wynno]

Salopian.

yes it does happen in fitasc, I have had two instances of abuse. Once when the shooter took umbrage at being docked a target for repeated pre mounting of the gun, and the other was by a certain gun shop owner who quite frankly did not know how to tackle a battue.

A quick “frankly pal I couldn’t give a flying f**k” referees decisions are final did the job, and when I wrote DNF on the score card the gun shop owner was mightily pissed.

 

[ChrisPackham]

Should name and shame them,the shooting community would ensure that they don't do it again!

I do not see the issue with being instructed to shoot targets in a certain way if that is what the course designer intended and it is therefore fair for all as everyone has done the same.

If targets mean that much to someone they should spend time improving there technique not trying to make them fit their skillset.

Absolutely this, no one who prefers driven targets would be allowed to stand underneath a crosser..

People have no manners or regards for anyone else now, how often do you get cut up other drivers only to have them give you a mouthful.

 

[LarsJ]

I agere with the not debating the refs instruction or decision. Also it seems like it is the same people that wants to intimidate the referees, especially if the referee is young. 

Regarding entering in a C class and actually being a A class shooter, how can that happen? I thought you have an extensive registration of participants class, isn't that why you shoot all those registered shoot? And in my honest opinion, that shooter shot be banned for entering competition for a year (from the day of the offense). If it's done again, no more competitions him/her. 

Out of curiosity, do you have to pay a fee if you put down a protest for the jury? 

Lars