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CPSA cut offs / classifications for issue 47 (applies from June 1st)
- Thread starter Will Hewland
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FloodDefence
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A guy that nearly always puts in a better score than me has a lower average than mine simply because I shoot more than him. He's been putting in 'B' class scores for a while now, in doing so beating every 'C' class shooter for the past 12-18 months yet we're both now going into 'B' at the same time, I make it by 3-4% whilst he scrapes in by 0.something-1%. He will probably still pick up more placings than me but retain a lower %age. Something wrong somewhere.
Don't forget you are talking about averages, not maximum class scores. To achieve a class average of 83 you will have had to have shot scores higher (and lower) than that! I think it's fair to expect on-the-day scores to be up to 10 targets higher than the cut off for a given class if someone is having a really good day. Depends on the shooters there on the day. I have seen D class for ABT won with an 80 and also with a 92.
Averages is averages. End of.
DT
ips
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Exactly mate, there are many reasons and causes for such discrepancies, the class system imo is flawed which is why i pay no attention to them. If classes were being won by class scores then i may see the point but they are not therefore its nonsense imo.
ips
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Valid point Greg BUT if you have proven that you are capable of A class scores (for instance) then surely you should be in A class. And what if you shoot 82 and 84 and average at 83 and end up in B, you don't stand chance.
But Ian that is my point. If you have stuck two scores in of 84 and 82 then you deserve to be in B class (depending on discipline of course).
Averages is a true reflection of a shooters ability over a number of shoots, not just a couple where he/ she shot his/her socks off.
As discussed many time on here previously one way to improve the current system is to update the averages on a more regular basis, say quarterly or bi-monthly. CPSA have proved they don't need a month to issue new classification cut offs as the next lot was issued last week.
The problem seems to rest with the grounds issuing scores promptly, as highlighted in the OT. Selection shoot cost thread!
DT
PS: we could debate the wrongs or rights of the current system all night but it is what it is ( at present) until someone comes up with something better.
Averages is a true reflection of a shooters ability over a number of shoots, not just a couple where he/ she shot his/her socks off.
As discussed many time on here previously one way to improve the current system is to update the averages on a more regular basis, say quarterly or bi-monthly. CPSA have proved they don't need a month to issue new classification cut offs as the next lot was issued last week.
The problem seems to rest with the grounds issuing scores promptly, as highlighted in the OT. Selection shoot cost thread!
DT
PS: we could debate the wrongs or rights of the current system all night but it is what it is ( at present) until someone comes up with something better.
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ips
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that's my pointa also Greg yes you do, but you are up against shooters who have put scores in of 90 and a 76 on a bad day for whatever reason so you are stuffed. Averages are exactly that but the potential variation is the flaw.
stevekeat
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I missed b class by .3% with any luck b class beckons next time.
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Chris Bubb
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If he puts in higher scores than you then his average must be higher, doesn't matter how many you shoot, an average is an average, Are you sure its not that the only time you notice his score is because he beat you.
FloodDefence
Well-known member
Maybe something I'm not understanding then but his Raw average is 4.5% higher than mine yet his adjusted average is 1.9% lower than mine. Think I've only beaten him on one or two occasions to be honest.
Richard59
Well-known member
As you've not intimated the discipline shot, the classification periods referred too nor does anyone know about whom you are, nor against whom you are rather harshly comparing against don't really think anyone can help you on this.
Raw average is based on the amount of shoots and targets hit minus the results that are not within 10% of your average if it's sporting your referring to? Stop worrying bout someone else's scores will probably lift your average anyway!
www.proshock.co.uk
Fortis Mark
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Raw is just that, the scores in the RAW (actual hits divided by max possible targets) Its a base-line for everyone. Its the adjusted figures that account for the % allowed - In sporting 10% - I'm sure you knew this and it was just a typo.
FloodDefence - based on your observations, on a straight foot race (RAW) said shooter is 4.5% better than you. But on the 'adjusted' averages you are 1.9% better than other shooter - Yes?
Now, in the mathematical conundrum above, I will offer an explanation for the difference seen when we bring the 'adjusted' figures into play.
In simple terms its all about Standard Deviation of the data set. To test this reasoning you will need to write down all your (RAW) scores, starting with the highest, down to the lowest. Do the same for the other shooters scores.
If I am correct you will have a score / scores that are higher than his 'best' score. You will also have a score / scores that are lower than his worst scores. So far so good?
Based on RAW, he will have a higher average than you as his scores vary less from his mean. He is a more consistent shooter if you will.
When we bring in the 10% rule for the adjusted averages, you will be the bigger benefactor, as more of your scores will be caught by the 10% rule. This is verified by the fact your adjusted average is better than his. He may also benefit from the adjusted fugues, but by a smaller margin.
Now, when you have done the back testing of my theory, please confirm I am correct and let me know what I have won - Thanks
The answer is to be more consistent in your shooting. Its certainly something I've been battling with over the last 6 months or so. My scores have been up and down more often than a
well you get the idea...PS: I am also available to solve mathematical problems at Birthdays and Bar Mitzvah's :biggrin:
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https://www.cpsa.co.uk/classification-system
That may explain what Fortis Mark is talking about more clearly (even though I understand him).
The adjusted average system makes it harder for sand baggers to stay in one class, since if they sand-bag too hard, the score will just be dropped. And for more honest shooters, who actually want to move up through the classes, makes it easier to maintain a good average, without one really bad score ruining it.
(With 88.3%, I think I am moving into B in dtl. Just as I was getting near the top of C!)
That may explain what Fortis Mark is talking about more clearly (even though I understand him).
The adjusted average system makes it harder for sand baggers to stay in one class, since if they sand-bag too hard, the score will just be dropped. And for more honest shooters, who actually want to move up through the classes, makes it easier to maintain a good average, without one really bad score ruining it.
(With 88.3%, I think I am moving into B in dtl. Just as I was getting near the top of C!)
ips
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Well I have stated before and on a recent thread that imo it should be something like.
Three classes, club national and international, none of which you drop from once your in.
club = club shooter, shooting reg events.
national = having won a county or regional championship or team member of county or regional
international = having won a national major or shot for country or GB etc
This is a rough outline but that's the general idea.
imo there is no need for DCBA, AA as imo the averages are flawed.
B class ABT for instance is approx. 84% so a shooter being capable and having shot 2x 90s and 2x 78s is B class same as someone who has shot 2x85 and 2x83 are these two shooters comparable ? one has proven he or she can shoot A class scores and has possibly shot the 2x78s in bad weather etc, the other is a good steady shooter but not capable of A class scores. Should shooter one be in B class same as shooter two ????
Three classes, club national and international, none of which you drop from once your in.
club = club shooter, shooting reg events.
national = having won a county or regional championship or team member of county or regional
international = having won a national major or shot for country or GB etc
This is a rough outline but that's the general idea.
imo there is no need for DCBA, AA as imo the averages are flawed.
B class ABT for instance is approx. 84% so a shooter being capable and having shot 2x 90s and 2x 78s is B class same as someone who has shot 2x85 and 2x83 are these two shooters comparable ? one has proven he or she can shoot A class scores and has possibly shot the 2x78s in bad weather etc, the other is a good steady shooter but not capable of A class scores. Should shooter one be in B class same as shooter two ????
