F1 2012

[Hamster]

Can somebody, perhaps Hamster, explain something to me?

I like F1...not a Die Hard Fan but I enjoy it. I understand a bit about cars, but...can some one tell me how the McLaren car, can be so much faster than the Mercedes? I'm just going on the fact that any team, must have millions behind them in order to compete, so how can someone like Mercedes, not build a car that is as fast as the McLaren and what is it that makes it faster?

Are they going to be allowed forced induction in 2014 then?

The fastest drivers gain their 1/20th of a second inside the bend, and through their braking, not on the straights where any Tom Dick or Harry can floor it. In order to do that they need a car that allows flawless control under braking and power to be putdownable asap. It's not just one thing like engine power or top speed but a combination of hundreds of little things that need to gel to beat 9 other teams all with millions of pounds and hundreds of talented people. It's an absolute jungle out there.

McLaren and Ferrari have the means of making small changes to the aero etc, very very quickly, they also have the experience of knowing what needs changing.

 

[Westward]

can some one tell me how the McLaren car, can be so much faster than the Mercedes?

Hammy's right but if you look closely at lap times the McLarens aren't that much faster than Mercedes even now and earlier this year they were very close with only a few milliseconds in it. McLaren though have been doing this a long time whereas Mercedes is relatively new having bought Brawn GP which was itself created from the ashes of the habitually mediocre Honda team.

Various major manufacturers such as BMW, Porsche and Toyota have tried to conquer F1 in the modern era without really being able to match the expertise and professionalism of teams like Williams or McLaren and make it stick. The only one who succeeded was Renault back in the last turbo era, but that was more to do with having a spectacularly powerful engine than any great brilliance at building F1 cars.

Teams have to have enormous budgets to be competitive but money alone isn't enough. Apart from the drivers, there have always been some exceptionally talented people who can and do make the winning difference.

 

[Skeet UK]

Cheers guys.

Much as I expected really I suppose. So although much of the cars design is specified by the rules and so on, there are still closely guarded secrets to set up and so on of the cars braking, suspension, dynamics and so on, that teams other than Williams, McLaren etc...don't fully understand. And these things all mount up to the the fractions of a second per section of the track.

I should go look at all the technical stuff really, but I know it would tie up a few weeks of my life while I obsessed about it!

Turbos then...1.6? Or was that a joke...1.6 BAR of Boost perhaps!

 

[Westward]

No joke. 1.6 litre turbo engines.

Presumably at 125 years old Ecclestone is getting senile and has forgotten the 1980s "turbo era" which almost destroyed F1.

 

[TobyM]

Not Bernie's decision - he doesn't make the rules (practically everything else, granted). I think he's against the change from what I've read

I don't recall the turbo days nearly destroying F1, it was an exciting period.

In any case, the new engines will bear a bit more relevance to the way manufacturers are going with smaller capacity, turbo-charged engines. On the other hand, it's a major investment of $ millions, and does the F1 fan really care what engines are used?

 

[Westward]

Well it was an exciting period for a group of French drivers of very much ho-hum ability who happened to be sitting in Renault cars, but few others enjoyed the concept of upping lap times simply by twiddling a boost pressure control on the steering wheel. Races were often won by the engine which could suck up the most boost without exploding.

In any case, the new engines will bear a bit more relevance to the way manufacturers are going with smaller capacity, turbo-charged engines.

Well is that the way things are going? Which makers have a turbo petrol engine in a current production ordinary volume selling car? Not saying there aren't any but none springs readily to mind. What I did read recently was that in 2011, for the 1st time, diesel cars outsold petrol, so should F1 engines be diesels?

For at least 50 years there's been an eternal circular argument whether F1 engines should be the ultimate expression of high performance technology or be at least somewhat relevant to what ends up in everyday road vehicles. Despite all the years of wrangling, the rule makers have never understood that most fans don't care about the technology and whether it will appear on production cars in 20 years time as long as they get good racing.

 

[TobyM]

I believe most new Mercedes petrol engines (blue efficiency) are now turbo-charged, same with Vauxhall and VW (blue motion). Must be others. This trend is due to the latest Euro 5 emissions rules.

I agree F1 should be the pinnacle, and I see nothing to change that fact with 1.6 litre V6 turbo-charged engines. They will be technologically the best, even with the proposed 15,000 rpm limit.

I also agree that F1 would be no worse off if they kept the status quo of the V8s. The FIA has its reasons, whatever they may be.

 

[VicW]

Below is an outline spec for the 2014 engines,copied from the F1 website.

The original engine change was going to use four cylinder engines but that was changed to the V6 but not until some manufacturers had started on their four cylinder versions.

Combustion engine specifications:

1600cc, V6

15000 rpm max

Direct fuel injection up to 500bar

Single turbocharger

Controlled fuel flow

Energy recovery and storage systems specifications:

Kinetic, 120kW on the rear wheels

Exhaust energy recovery linked to the turbocharger

This another attempt by F1 to enhance its green image.

Gordon Bennett we are talking about racing engines that by their very nature do about 4mpg,what is the point of trying to achieve 6mpg?

Vic.

 

[Skeet UK]

Well it was an exciting period for a group of French drivers of very much ho-hum ability who happened to be sitting in Renault cars, but few others enjoyed the concept of upping lap times simply by twiddling a boost pressure control on the steering wheel. Races were often won by the engine which could suck up the most boost without exploding.

Well is that the way things are going? Which makers have a turbo petrol engine in a current production ordinary volume selling car? Not saying there aren't any but none springs readily to mind. What I did read recently was that in 2011, for the 1st time, diesel cars outsold petrol, so should F1 engines be diesels?

For at least 50 years there's been an eternal circular argument whether F1 engines should be the ultimate expression of high performance technology or be at least somewhat relevant to what ends up in everyday road vehicles. Despite all the years of wrangling, the rule makers have never understood that most fans don't care about the technology and whether it will appear on production cars in 20 years time as long as they get good racing.

Peugeot RCZ 1.6 Petrol Twin Turbo 200BHP...

 

[Westward]

Peugeot RCZ 1.6 Petrol Twin Turbo 200BHP...

Doesn't really qualify as an "ordinary volume selling car" though.....
I like Vic's point. Why prat around paying lip service to "transferable technology" when it's only ever transferred to specialised high performance cars which, by their very nature, are bought by people who aren't concerned about fuel consumption or pollution.

F1 can never go back to the barnstorming, free for all anarchy of the 60s & 70s - great though it was. It has to give a nod to the PC brigade and whatever anyone's personal opinion may be, it is a widely held belief nowadays that climate change is caused by greenhouse gases and that vehicles are largely responsible. F1 cannot go on ignoring the dreaded green agenda for ever.

Therefore and with great sadness my opinion now is that F1 rules should either be for an engine spec which basically utilises technology that can, within a reasonable time, be applied in volume selling cars, or free choice of engine size and type but which must meet a strict fuel consumption figure.

Instead though the 2014 regs are designed to kiss the arses of the likes of Mercedes and keep them in play for as long as possible.

 

[Salopian]

Would it not be cheaper to put numerous steel rails into the track surface and electrify the rails, then the cars could be powered by electric motors, similar to the electric trains, or maybe we could have diesel electric like the locomotives of the sixties or how about boiling a kettle and harnessing the steam from the boiled water?

Why have they never raced cars with engines restricted to 1,000cc with a single venturi carburettor, narrow tyres and no aerodynamic devices. I bet that would be exciting racing, especially if they removed all those armco and concrete barriers and grew some trackside trees and allowed people to picnic by the side of the track. Now THAT would be exciting, especially if teams were restricted to one mechanic and a boy and had to transport cars to the track on a trailer towed by a Ford Transit or maybe even a Mercedes Sprinter (White of course).

 

[TobyM]

Yes, quite.

Anyway, dragging it back on topic, Japan this weekend. Button turned out to have the same gearbox issue which finished LH's race so has a 5 grid penalty.

Can't see past LH being the winner if he's on the front row AND the car holds up.

Bookies agree: LH 2/1; SV 9/2; FA 9/2; JB 15/2

 

[TobyM]

And to no surprise, Schumacher retires at the end of the season (again)

 

[VicW]

F1 seems to be good at putting its head up its own backside,particularly where engines are concerned.

A few years a go in the era of the 3 litre V10 it was decided that smaller,greener engines were required, so the decision was made to change to 2.3 litre V8,at the cost of several million pounds.

One team said that they couldn't afford the change,so the decision was made that said team could continue V10's but at reduced revs to make them on a par with the new V8's.

Everybody could have done this and saved millions.

Now we have the pending change to 1.6 litre V6 turbos at considerable cost again and to achieve precious little.

Alongside this change is an increase in KERS output to make up for some of the lower power output of the smaller engines.

So what will have been achieved overall ?

Vic.

 

[Hamster]

All these rule changes are part of the circus really, saving money at F1, give me strength. :.: :mellow:

 

[ExSCA]

Parked in reception at my office today - wish I had my camera with me rather than my crappy phone...

http://www.shootclayforum.com/uploads/monthly_10_2012/post-10-0-63500900-1349772981.jpghttp://www.shootclayforum.com/uploads/monthly_10_2012/post-10-0-74228900-1349772983.jpghttp://www.shootclayforum.com/uploads/monthly_10_2012/post-10-0-23707500-1349772986.jpg

http://www.shootclayforum.com/uploads/monthly_10_2012/post-10-0-18433600-1349772988.jpghttp://www.shootclayforum.com/uploads/monthly_10_2012/post-10-0-15017200-1349772990.jpghttp://www.shootclayforum.com/uploads/monthly_10_2012/post-10-0-43802000-1349772992.jpg

Its a couple of seasons old, but has been liveried in this years colours/drivers.

There is no engine in it, so it weighs ~370kg - they bought it in on a dolly, on its side. My company are one of the sponsors and we're collecting for charity to have pictures taken with it.

Lovely to look at everyones face when they see it.

 

[Hamster]

These things are breathtaking , I remember reading years ago that an F1 steering wheel cost something like £50k to manufacture back then !

 

[Will Hewland]

F1 is the last bastion of true waste. A masturbation exercise for design engineers.

 

[VicW]

Everything is made of 'unobtanium' so it costs lots of noughts.

A brake disc costs about £10,000 !!

McLaren will have to buy their engines from Mercedes next year at a cost of £30M !!

Perhaps it's not so surprising that they dropped Hamilton and his mega salary and recruited Perez who possibly brings money with him.

This is the sport that is changing to a new engine design in 2014 at a cost of millions just to save a couple of mpg.

Vic.

 

[Hamster]

I may have got it wrong but just heard on R4 that McLaren appear to have managed to get their 2007 SpyGate fine of £49m to be deemed as a business expense and thus tax deductible !