Will Hewland
Well-known member
They would be mad and irresponsible not to try and get it through. I am sure HMRC have guidelines for it..
F1 2012
- Thread starter TobyM
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TobyM
Well-known member
It was a ridiculous amount, so I don't blame them for trying all legal ways to reduce its impact.
RobertBeard
Moderator
General HMRC Guidance off their website:-
A fine incurred as a result of a trader's infraction of the law is not allowable on the authority of CIR v Alexander von Glehn Ltd [1920] 12TC232, as it is not incurred wholly and exclusively for the purpose of the trade.
Lord Hoffman, in the case of McKnight v Sheppard [1999] 71TC419, noted that the Court of Appeal in the von Glehn case was:
" curiously inarticulate about why the fine was not money expended for the purposes of the trade."
He went on to note that, in his opinion, the reason related to the character of a fine or a penalty:
" Its purpose is to punish the taxpayer and a court may easily conclude that the legislative policy would be diluted if the taxpayer were allowed to share the burden with the rest of the community by a deduction for the purposes of tax."
However, this does not apply to damages that are compensatory, rather than punitive, in character. For example, damages for defamation payable by a newspaper company, where such claims are " a regular and almost unavoidable incident of publishing it".
Where an employer pays fines that are the liability of an employee, so that the employee is assessable on the payment as employment income, the cost to the employer of paying the fines may be allowable in computing his trading profits.
I imagine that a large part of the argument is that the fine was by a Trade Association and not a Statutory fine. They would perhaps also look to see if tax had been paid on the fine by the recipient and if so then deduction by the payer of the fine should follow.
Interesting point and makes one wonder about other sporting fines on players and whether these are paid out of gross or net income or tax deductible if a personal service company is in use.
I must ask one of my tax partners.
A fine incurred as a result of a trader's infraction of the law is not allowable on the authority of CIR v Alexander von Glehn Ltd [1920] 12TC232, as it is not incurred wholly and exclusively for the purpose of the trade.
Lord Hoffman, in the case of McKnight v Sheppard [1999] 71TC419, noted that the Court of Appeal in the von Glehn case was:
" curiously inarticulate about why the fine was not money expended for the purposes of the trade."
He went on to note that, in his opinion, the reason related to the character of a fine or a penalty:
" Its purpose is to punish the taxpayer and a court may easily conclude that the legislative policy would be diluted if the taxpayer were allowed to share the burden with the rest of the community by a deduction for the purposes of tax."
However, this does not apply to damages that are compensatory, rather than punitive, in character. For example, damages for defamation payable by a newspaper company, where such claims are " a regular and almost unavoidable incident of publishing it".
Where an employer pays fines that are the liability of an employee, so that the employee is assessable on the payment as employment income, the cost to the employer of paying the fines may be allowable in computing his trading profits.
I imagine that a large part of the argument is that the fine was by a Trade Association and not a Statutory fine. They would perhaps also look to see if tax had been paid on the fine by the recipient and if so then deduction by the payer of the fine should follow.
Interesting point and makes one wonder about other sporting fines on players and whether these are paid out of gross or net income or tax deductible if a personal service company is in use.
I must ask one of my tax partners.
Will Hewland
Well-known member
VicW
Well-known member
You like close racing ? Romain Grosjean must be a fan !!
Don't those V8's sound great !!
Vic.
Don't those V8's sound great !!
Vic.
Last edited by a moderator:
Grosjean has been getting serious flack but I for one hope he gets re-signed for next year. You can be unlucky as well as accident prone but it IS his first full year in a mental sport after all. I seem to recall Massa getting sacked by Peter Sauber for his hot headedness, ended up serving testing roles for Ferrari for a while being given a drive again, lost the championship in 07 by 1 point beating Raikkonen in the process 
.
Even Lewis was thumping Massa off every where last year and look what Mercedes paid to sign him up .
.Even Lewis was thumping Massa off every where last year and look what Mercedes paid to sign him up
.
RobertBeard
Moderator
Tribunal Chairman's summing up in the McLaren Tax case:-
The Chairman held that the penalty was not one imposed on McLaren by a public authority or external regulator, but one which it was contractually obliged to pay under contractual obligations undertaken for the purposes of its trade. It had agreed to submit to the FIA as part of its trade in order to gain income; the payment arose from the action of employees in pursuing a course of conduct for the benefit of its trade, and not from actions unconnected with its trade. The penalty was motivated by commercial policy. The FIA had commercial considerations more than the public interest in view; the protection of fairness in motor sport organised by FIA does not carry the same sort of public interest as that protected by a regulator of a profession based on trust. Therefore the penalty was something which arose from its trade, was connected with its trade and was incurred wholly and exclusively for the purposes of its trade.
The Chairman held that the penalty was not one imposed on McLaren by a public authority or external regulator, but one which it was contractually obliged to pay under contractual obligations undertaken for the purposes of its trade. It had agreed to submit to the FIA as part of its trade in order to gain income; the payment arose from the action of employees in pursuing a course of conduct for the benefit of its trade, and not from actions unconnected with its trade. The penalty was motivated by commercial policy. The FIA had commercial considerations more than the public interest in view; the protection of fairness in motor sport organised by FIA does not carry the same sort of public interest as that protected by a regulator of a profession based on trust. Therefore the penalty was something which arose from its trade, was connected with its trade and was incurred wholly and exclusively for the purposes of its trade.
I see that people are up in arms about Kimi's comments.
It really is amazing how people can be offended when someone speaks the truth but uses the wrong terminology.
For those of you who don't know Kimi is a man of few words until he's had a few beers. He thinks that the politics attached to corporate F1 is ' Sh 1 t'
Radio conversation from pitwall to Kimi " You need to maintain pace , keep pushing" reply from Kimi " Yes, yes, I know what I'm doing, leave me alone".
I would love Alonso to win the Championship, if only to stop a brilliant arrogant Hun from waving his index finger at me.
Message to Sebastian, " Sit on it and swivel."
It really is amazing how people can be offended when someone speaks the truth but uses the wrong terminology.
For those of you who don't know Kimi is a man of few words until he's had a few beers. He thinks that the politics attached to corporate F1 is ' Sh 1 t'
Radio conversation from pitwall to Kimi " You need to maintain pace , keep pushing" reply from Kimi " Yes, yes, I know what I'm doing, leave me alone".
I would love Alonso to win the Championship, if only to stop a brilliant arrogant Hun from waving his index finger at me.
Message to Sebastian, " Sit on it and swivel."
TobyM
Well-known member
Sadly it's looking like a Red Bull track - let's hope Alonso can take some points off Vettel just for the sake of a close championship
VicW
Well-known member
The HRT Formula 1 team is for sale,again !
Now is your chance to make a name for yourself.
Remember the old saying,how do you make a small fortune from F1 ?
Start with a large one !!
Vic.
Now is your chance to make a name for yourself.
Remember the old saying,how do you make a small fortune from F1 ?
Start with a large one !!
Vic.
That's running a clay ground Vic , most don't do too badly out of F1 once they get there. I've been away for a few weeks so just finished watching the last two races on SKY+ . Kimi sure did deserve that win even if Lewis didn't deserve a DNF in clear lead......again. :yell:
, most don't do too badly out of F1 once they get there. I've been away for a few weeks so just finished watching the last two races on SKY+ . Kimi sure did deserve that win even if Lewis didn't deserve a DNF in clear lead......again. :yell:
TobyM
Well-known member
Excellent drive by Hamilton. So it goes down to Brazil:
Vettel – 273
Alonso – 260
13 points in it. Alonso must outscore Vettel by 14 points. In the event that they end up tied – Vettel wins the title due to winning more races.
In order for Alonso to be the 2012 champion, Alonso MUST FINISH ON THE PODIUM, and Vettel MUST FINISH OUTSIDE OF THE TOP 4
Vettel will be champion if:
- Vettel finishes in the top 4
- Vettel finishes P5-P7, Alonso finishes P2 or lower
- Vettel P8-P9, Alonso finishes P3 or lower
- Vettel finishes P10/DNFs, Alonso off the podium
Alonso will be champion if:
- Alonso wins, Vettel finishes P5 or lower
- Alonso P2, Vettel finishes P8 or lower
- Alonso P3, Vettel finishes P10 or lower
- If Alonso is off the podium, he CANNOT be champion
Vettel – 273
Alonso – 260
13 points in it. Alonso must outscore Vettel by 14 points. In the event that they end up tied – Vettel wins the title due to winning more races.
In order for Alonso to be the 2012 champion, Alonso MUST FINISH ON THE PODIUM, and Vettel MUST FINISH OUTSIDE OF THE TOP 4
Vettel will be champion if:
- Vettel finishes in the top 4
- Vettel finishes P5-P7, Alonso finishes P2 or lower
- Vettel P8-P9, Alonso finishes P3 or lower
- Vettel finishes P10/DNFs, Alonso off the podium
Alonso will be champion if:
- Alonso wins, Vettel finishes P5 or lower
- Alonso P2, Vettel finishes P8 or lower
- Alonso P3, Vettel finishes P10 or lower
- If Alonso is off the podium, he CANNOT be champion
Will Hewland
Well-known member
Good summary T.
ehb102
Well-known member
RBR winning means I get a decent shotgun - DH works for RBR and they get a bonus for winning the constructors. Not Perazzi money, mind, but certainly that DT10 is looking more likely
Support RBR for next year so I can have a trap gun too!
Support RBR for next year so I can have a trap gun too!
The car is everything as we know, Damon Hill would have won the 1994 World Championship had it not been for Schumacher deliberately running him off :yell: .
Vettel was gifted his first title by Ferrari making a stupid call bringing in Alonso on the same lap as Petrov thus making a pass on track impossible. His 2nd title was more than well deserved as Alonso said at the time, he was flawless in a flawless car. This year it would be a travesty if he wins a third title in a row, just as in 2010 he has come from behind (suggesting he needs a well developed car to perform), unlike Alonso who has wrung podiums out of the fourth best car all year.
Vettel was gifted his first title by Ferrari making a stupid call bringing in Alonso on the same lap as Petrov thus making a pass on track impossible. His 2nd title was more than well deserved as Alonso said at the time, he was flawless in a flawless car. This year it would be a travesty if he wins a third title in a row, just as in 2010 he has come from behind (suggesting he needs a well developed car to perform), unlike Alonso who has wrung podiums out of the fourth best car all year.
Will Hewland
Well-known member
Vettel does have that lovely ability to maximise the situation, avoiding trouble and keeping it smooth. A bit like putting a good clay score together, by never missing the easy ones. In that sense he is a bit unspectacular and uninteresting but deeply professional, where Alonso and even more Hamilton can trip up..
Hamilton certainly, probably his most obvious flaw in fact but Alonso is yet to land in a car that is so good he can win from the front. If you think back to his Renault wins he was on the limit whether behind or in front.
sibaldib
Well-known member
And the forecast is for rain! That could sort the men from the boys and be a great leveller!
