Introduction and gun fit question

[bordergun]

Westward Please lets all remember how this started? I put a link on here with free information about gunfit to help shooters. Most say it helps. Ben said "time to close the thread" because in his words "pattern plates are useless" That conflicts with the opinions of several prominent coaches. When some asked him to explain he didn't. He hurled insults, not just at me, but at others that suggested a pattern plate was a good way to find out where a gun shoots. Please notice that I didn't hurl insults. I complemented Ben on his shooting and coaching achievements. But he didn't get every SC shooter in the World to the top. And really, you should be smart enough to realize that if I have been a professional coach with the track record I have for as long as I have, I must be doing something right. I don't need the insults and I don't rely on money from book sales. For that reason, I won't respond on here again.

 

[k80ben]

Westward Please lets all remember how this started? I put a link on here with free information about gunfit to help shooters. Most say it helps. Ben said "time to close the thread" because in his words "pattern plates are useless" That conflicts with the opinions of several prominent coaches. When some asked him to explain he didn't. He hurled insults, not just at me, but at others that suggested a pattern plate was a good way to find out where a gun shoots. Please notice that I didn't hurl insults. I complemented Ben on his shooting and coaching achievements. But he didn't get every SC shooter in the World to the top. And really, you should be smart enough to realize that if I have been a professional coach with the track record I have for as long as I have, I must be doing something right. I don't need the insults and I don't rely on money from book sales. For that reason, I won't respond on here again.

Ok I didn’t hurl insults until the nonsense started. And I certainly aimed the sarcasm at you and only you.

You don’t have any track record in competing yourself or any students being successful. You’re a Charlatan.

So back to the beginning the moment I saw you peddling the book and website which is full of such misinformation it will make you worse not better without getting rude I simply stated close the thread. I’ve seen you kicked off every other site and simply didn’t want you trolling the Uk sites as well

 

[bordergun]

Ben. The "nonsense" was the logic of pattern plates. Since you have brought track records up, you certainly have one here in the US. Living here for as long as I have I hear all the stories. Including the one, not MY words of course, but (ACCORDING TO THE INTERNET) about you being banned for "cheating, messing with you score card and intimidating refs. and scorers" and being "stripped of your title" at the 2019 World English at Northbrook? I will be happy to provide you with all the links if necessary? At that time a poster called Westward from Gloucestershire commented and I quote (AGAIN FROM THE INTERNET):- "who wants instruction and coaching from a known cheat?" It may be a different Westward of course? It's a strange World we live in these days Ben, I'm sure you agree?

And I would love to continue this discussion but it's a lovely day here and I need to go and do some lessons, even though I can't shoot or coach.

 

[wynno]

Admin please close this thread,

 

[bordergun]

Of course Wynno! You accuse me of B/S, Ben calls me a charlatan, says I can't shoot or coach and all I wanted to do was help shooters. Bravo sir!

 

[k80ben]

Ben. The "nonsense" was the logic of pattern plates. Since you have brought track records up, you certainly have one here in the US. Living here for as long as I have I hear all the stories. Including the one, not MY words of course, but (ACCORDING TO THE INTERNET) about you being banned for "cheating, messing with you score card and intimidating refs. and scorers" and being "stripped of your title" at the 2019 World English at Northbrook? I will be happy to provide you with all the links if necessary? At that time a poster called Westward from Gloucestershire commented and I quote (AGAIN FROM THE INTERNET):- "who wants instruction and coaching from a known cheat?" It may be a different Westward of course? It's a strange World we live in these days Ben, I'm sure you agree?

And I would love to continue this discussion but it's a lovely day here and I need to go and do some lessons, even though I can't shoot or coach.

No indeed I’ve heard the rumours as well. And indeed built a huge following off the back of the free press. But as you would have found with your research there was no paper trail, no ban in place and numerous letters from referees killing the intimidation rumour.

So you just used the last piece in your armour and failed miserably again. I am impressed though most internet **** houses go there earlier you held out a few days. So credit there.

You reference two USA shooters quite a lot so being thorough I’ve spoken with both and all refute anything to do with you or having any similarities to your web site or book

I believe you do want to help shooters buy unfortunately the talent required is missing. You have a place with beginners and bachelor parties etc.

You came to a uk site peddling **** made it personal then cried wolf

 

[westley]

Why would you suggest that?

Maybe he has gone to his shed where he has all those Browning barrel weights ?

 

[Freddypip]

I’ve been away for a few days and missed a fair bit of this (really, all of it since my last post).

I’ve ordered the book “You’re Behind It” – I did so when this all kicked off. It’s not arrived yet and I’ll wait to see if “Bear Book Sales” get it to me by the 22nd October. For impartiality I have bought second hand so there is no suggestion of agreeing with the author etc. I am happy to review it when received (assuming an audience) however a quick watch of the video snip-it on the website is not favorable – the suggestion that the unit system works stills works the same between 20 & 30 yard targets because of the pattern spread does make me wonder if it’s too simple . . .

I am not a coach. In my ignorance, I think lead is governed by the lead in front of the clay and also gun speed.

Lead in front of the clay maybe measurable but breaking it down into a divisor is nothing new – I often shoot comps and we are saying 20% or 25% (more or less etc) to each other. If the “unit” system is simply a method of measuring that type of lead I will be disappointed. We use percentages because we understand the importance of . . .

Gun speed is another thing entirely. It is dependent on hold point, kill point, visual point & technique (swing through, pull away etc) and you must know all of those factor to appreciate its affect on lead. You can’t coach that in 2 or 3 hours. I don’t think you could coach it in that time for skeet (or trap) where the measurements are set by the discipline. Gun speed (and particularly kill point) is very personal – hence using percentages etc when talking about changes in lead.

Turning to gun fit, I really struggling getting my daughters gun right but I do understand enough about pitch comb height and cast to realize it is not a case of reading a book (in my case the “Stock Fitters Bible” etc) so a PDF from Dallas would not do it for me. I also see more raised ribs, adjustable stocks, stock & barrel weights, and barrel lengths to realize, as Ben says, it’s a changing feast and best left to those that have the time to keep up to date. I am happy to have a go with my gun at my risk.

Any finally, "The **** doth protest too much, methinks". Anyone who wants makes a lot of noise is usually trying to big themselves up to much. I am a bit worried that “You’re Behind It” ends up being akin to a Panto.

 

[bordergun]

Freddy. If there is anything you don't understand when you get the book, I will be more than happy to explain it, so please e mail me. And of course you are correct, gun speed does obviously affect lead. But for competitive shotgunning, for consistency, you absolutely need to be shooting sustained lead and there is an article explaining why on my web.site. "No Magic Method" But, seeing the correct sight picture is the critical thing. Once you see that by using sustained lead, if you then use swing through or pull away, because you have visually programmed your on board computer, your brain will be able to compute the variable of gun speed. Your brain is like a computer, but regardless of what some will tell you, you still need to program it. For example, some coaches will tell you to use pull-away. But then, they omit the important part........how much to pull away. "OK coach, how much?" One feet, two feet, six feet? If you don't know that, you will miss. And of course most coaches don't know how to explain that to YOU in logical terms. So they tell you "it's instinct" or "the magic of your subconsious." It isn't, it's trigonometry.

Also, in the initial stages of using the book, please close your off eye. This is TEMPORARY and I suggest this because I have no control over any eye dominance problems you may have. Once you know the leads, try shooting with both eyes open, see which is more consistent. And don't believe what some coaches try to tell you "two eyes is always better" Not for some of us it isn't and now Ed Solomons says the same thing.

Also, try to start on a skeet field with a PRE MOUNTED gun. Once again, this is TEMPORARY. In other words I am eliminating two variables here, a possible eye dominance conflict and a possible bad mount. Either of those will prevent you from seeing the correct bird/barrel relationship every time. Everything you learn on a skeet field will apply exactly to a SC course.........just like Mr. Digweed says.

Perhaps the most amazing thing shooters are finding with the book is the fact that because lead is applied at the muzzle (WITHOUT LOOKING AT IT) on the angular shots the speed of the target and the range is inconsequential and I explain why in the book. The muzzle MUST remain in your peripheral vision....... just like it would be if you were applying lead out there at the target. DO NOT LOOK AT IT.

I have already given the sight picture formula for skeet on here in an earlier post, but here it is again:-

Low house #1 1 unit, (or fingers) High house is the opposite
LH #2 2 units 0, 1,2,4,4,2,1
LH #3 4 units
LH #4 4 units
LH #5 2 units
LH #6 1 unit
LH # 7 0
I will also be happy to e mail you (or anyone else) some specific instructions that I used with success during Covid. COMPLETELY FREE. Nothing up my sleeve, no strings attached etc. Please contact me here:- www.peteblakeley.com

And you suggest that my claim to get a new shooter to consistently break every target on a skeet field in 2-3 hours is wrong. Freddy, honestly, I do it all the time. I asked the outdoor editor of the Dallas Morning News, Ray Sasser, to bring me a guinea pig to the Elmfork facility (Scott Robertsons place). I had a new 10 year old shooter breaking every target on #1, #2, #3 and #4 with this system in about 20 minutes. The article will still be there, I will send it if I can find it. I indicate the leads to the shooters with my now very famous "target on a stick" It's just a small black button (to represent the target) on the end of a car aerial, and I hold it up next to the muzzle to indicate to the student the correct lead and it is mind blowing for indicating leads. Many coaches over here use one now, but I was the inventor. Once again, I'm happy to send anyone a picture.

BTW for some reason, shooters seem to like the UL book better than the DVD. The Reading Targets book is also very good and both will be available soon I hope at a very modest price. All the pictures in the RT book were taken with a camera exactly where the shooters eye would be and I would be more than happy to send you (or anyone else) scans of some of the actual pictures.

Good Luck!

 

[k80ben]

Freddy. If there is anything you don't understand when you get the book, I will be more than happy to explain it, so please e mail me. And of course you are correct, gun speed does obviously affect lead. But for competitive shotgunning, for consistency, you absolutely need to be shooting sustained lead and there is an article explaining why on my web.site. "No Magic Method" But, seeing the correct sight picture is the critical thing. Once you see that by using sustained lead, if you then use swing through or pull away, because you have visually programmed your on board computer, your brain will be able to compute the variable of gun speed. Your brain is like a computer, but regardless of what some will tell you, you still need to program it. For example, some coaches will tell you to use pull-away. But then, they omit the important part........how much to pull away. "OK coach, how much?" One feet, two feet, six feet? If you don't know that, you will miss. And of course most coaches don't know how to explain that to YOU in logical terms. So they tell you "it's instinct" or "the magic of your subconsious." It isn't, it's trigonometry.

Also, in the initial stages of using the book, please close your off eye. This is TEMPORARY and I suggest this because I have no control over any eye dominance problems you may have. Once you know the leads, try shooting with both eyes open, see which is more consistent. And don't believe what some coaches try to tell you "two eyes is always better" Not for some of us it isn't and now Ed Solomons says the same thing.

Also, try to start on a skeet field with a PRE MOUNTED gun. Once again, this is TEMPORARY. In other words I am eliminating two variables here, a possible eye dominance conflict and a possible bad mount. Either of those will prevent you from seeing the correct bird/barrel relationship every time. Everything you learn on a skeet field will apply exactly to a SC course.........just like Mr. Digweed says.

Perhaps the most amazing thing shooters are finding with the book is the fact that because lead is applied at the muzzle (WITHOUT LOOKING AT IT) on the angular shots the speed of the target and the range is inconsequential and I explain why in the book. The muzzle MUST remain in your peripheral vision....... just like it would be if you were applying lead out there at the target. DO NOT LOOK AT IT.

I have already given the sight picture formula for skeet on here in an earlier post, but here it is again:-

Low house #1 1 unit, (or fingers) High house is the opposite
LH #2 2 units 0, 1,2,4,4,2,1
LH #3 4 units
LH #4 4 units
LH #5 2 units
LH #6 1 unit
LH # 7 0
I will also be happy to e mail you (or anyone else) some specific instructions that I used with success during Covid. COMPLETELY FREE. Nothing up my sleeve, no strings attached etc. Please contact me here:- www.peteblakeley.com

And you suggest that my claim to get a new shooter to consistently break every target on a skeet field in 2-3 hours is wrong. Freddy, honestly, I do it all the time. I asked the outdoor editor of the Dallas Morning News, Ray Sasser, to bring me a guinea pig to the Elmfork facility (Scott Robertsons place). I had a new 10 year old shooter breaking every target on #1, #2, #3 and #4 with this system in about 20 minutes. The article will still be there, I will send it if I can find it. I indicate the leads to the shooters with my now very famous "target on a stick" It's just a small black button (to represent the target) on the end of a car aerial, and I hold it up next to the muzzle to indicate to the student the correct lead and it is mind blowing for indicating leads. Many coaches over here use one now, but I was the inventor. Once again, I'm happy to send anyone a picture.

BTW for some reason, shooters seem to like the UL book better than the DVD. The Reading Targets book is also very good and both will be available soon I hope at a very modest price. All the pictures in the RT book were taken with a camera exactly where the shooters eye would be and I would be more than happy to send you (or anyone else) scans of some of the actual pictures.

Good Luck!

Complete and utter fictions close your eye. Maintained lead holy Jesus h Christ

You couldn’t be farther from helping people of u tried. Among the very best in the world maintained would be the very least used method and only in certain instances. And all the top shots look at the barrels, you talk of measuring well to measure anything u need 2 points of reference so more idiocy.

The fact you think we have a large workable shot pattern proves to spend too much time on a pattern plate.

The only thing I think you invented was BS

Please stick to your word and stop posting

You’ve announced your departure more times than an airport

 

[westley]

I must be really lucky, I simply go out, shoot, enjoy myself and then go home !

 

[vmax1010]

Getting back to the point of a pattern plate I can see were Ben is coming from, taking a shot at the pattern plate is a static shot were as shooting a target is a dynamic movement so the movement of the shooter needs to be taken into account but a pattern plate is essential for choke-cartridge combination and setting up an adjustable rib

 

[Freddypip]

Whilst I do shoot maintained lead more than normal, it is impossible to go round a UK Sporting layout using it in isolation. Further the CPSA system is pull away with swing through and those two will handle most if not all (UK) clay presentations. If you stick with maintained/sustained lead I would write off (at least) 20% of UK Sporting clays immediately – you will not have the time or gun control to shoot them that way.

A coach should not tell the student how much lead. The coach gets the technique right and then the student builds their own personal picture up – the latter should not take too long if the coach knows how to teach the former. That gives the student control of different kill points, hold points and other factors – all of which a UK course setter will challenge day in day out let alone at international level. At best it’s a case of telling the student to add/subtract a percentage or amount of perceived lead and even then only to get a kill on the day, making it clear it's only on that day, with that clay. When shooting the Essex Master this year (first time for me) I watched George Digweed and Richard Faulds shoot the same stand. They picked quite different hold & kill points and thus different gun speeds. Their ideas of lead would have be entirely different but I was able to understand what both were doing because I understood the process and not just the lead.

I know my eye dominance issues. I do occasionally close one eye but it’s a choice – from my recollection Ed Solomons (in the TGS video) does not say it’s a rule but acceptable in certain situations and I would agree with that. There are clays (for me low right to left as a left hander) when the barrel obscures the dominant eye and closing the non-dominant one avoids the eyes ‘swapping over’. Again in skeet, closing one eye may well be OK for every clay but that's skeet.

I don’t shoot skeet – I shoot UK sporting. I think this is the key issue here. A lot of what you are saying may apply to skeet – and may work well for that discipline with students willing to accept exactly what you say without any discussion of technique. They may shoot high 90's. Skeet does apply to Sporting but it is a basic framework and as I say above (UK) course setters are fully aware of what it teaches and then how to set traps up to confuse the shooter if that’s what you rely on. Its very easy to walk up to a Sporting clay and see a similar skeet target only to find the target has slightly less spring, and then turns or stalls in a way which prompts a miss – a miss which at the level Ben teaches cannot be afforded. I would suggest applying skeet technique alone might get you low 60's on a good day on UK Sporting.

I will read the book but if you are saying that understanding (maintained) lead alone makes you a good shot or coach, then, at present, I would disagree with respect to UK Sporting and many of the other non-skeet disciplines. I assumed lead was key 10 years ago and I’ve moved on from that along time ago. Talking about lead alone is a bit like telling someone to visit, and giving them a house number without the street name, town, or county.

 

[Bebo]

I wasn't going to chip in on this, but even as a mediocre shot I know that you can't deal with all targets using maintained lead and relying on it for everything will put you at a massive disadvantage. I actually like maintained lead on a lot of targets, but for anything quartering or requiring minimal lead it's terrible.

 

[Luke_(NL)]

I don’t shoot skeet – I shoot UK sporting. I think this is the key issue here. A lot of what you are saying may apply to skeet – and may work well for that discipline with students willing to accept exactly what you say without any discussion of technique. They may shoot high 90's.

I shoot (Olympic) skeet almost exclusively (save for the Sporting skeet nationals and a little practice for same) and would not advise a beginner to shoot maintained lead on any skeet target. In my view, to shoot maintained lead you have to know trajectory and speed of the clay, which takes some getting used to. ML also requires a particularly consistent mount and swing speed. I use a little maintained lead on pairs at stations 3, 4 and 5, but shoot everything by letting the clay pass the barrel first. Maybe that's why I cannot compete with the likes of Vincent Hancock, but I can hold my own among lesser mortals.

 

[bordergun]

Gentlemen. I certainly wasn't suggesting that you shoot maintained for everything. I was suggesting that it was the most consistent for competitive shot-gunning and the best way to learn the correct bird/barrel relationships you need. In other words, if you try to teach someone lead and they are a swing through shooter, variation in gun speed will obviously mean that they will hit some of the targets, some of the time. So, in actual fact they are learning absolutely nothing in terms of the correct lead.

For those interested, I will be happy to e mail you a recent screenshot from Shotgun World from someone who now shoots on the US team and came close to winning a big FITASC shoot here a month ago. I will NOT put this info. on a public forum, but I will send it to you via e mail. He came to me for lessons and says clearly in the screenshot from SGW: "I went to Dallas for lessons, bought the book and learned all I could, it quickly got me through all the classes in to Masterclass etc. " So, the information in the book absolutely does work for the variables of SC targets, not just skeet. But of course, you need to read it and then practice. So, if you are looking for a book that fixes any eye dominance, gun-mounting problems or variations of gun-speed, please don't buy it. There isn't a book written that will fix that.

Also, some come on here suggesting that I hand out free advice because "He's trying to sell his books." If you look on my web. site on the course design section you will see that I also install SC courses all over the US with fellow Brit Simon Hurley. The latest was here at this place three weeks ago:- www.guitarranches.com I absolutely do not need to sell books to earn a living, but I do like to help shooters.

 

[bordergun]

Luke. You absolutely should know the trajectory and speed of the clay in skeet, because it is a constant if the field has been hooped correctly. I'm quite surprised you said that? And if you are saying you are letting the target "pass the barrel" that's a big mistake because then you absolutely WILL have too much gun speed. With any intermediary we use, tennis racket, golf club etc and especially a shotgun, too much momentum will mean it will travel in a straight line. Clay targets don't fly in straight lines and Top Olympians don't do that. Without seeing you shoot, I would suggest your gun hold address position is wrong, move it out a little. BTW I know Vincent, he coaches at Fort Worth, a few hours from here. Very nice guy and excellent coach. By shooting maintained lead I can get a NEW shooter to break every target on a skeet field in about 2-3 hours. And more importantly, know exactly why he is breaking them.

Luke, I e mailed you some detailed instructions for doing this, did you try them? And before some of you call B/S on that, I will also be happy to e mail the same instructions to anyone who is interested. Please contact me here;-www.peteblakeley.com

 

[Daz W]

But for competitive shotgunning, for consistency, you absolutely need to be shooting sustained lead and there is an article explaining why on my web.site. "No Magic Method" But, seeing the correct sight picture is the critical thing. Once you see that by using sustained lead, if you then use swing through or pull away, because you have visually programmed your on board computer, your brain will be able to compute the variable of gun speed. Your brain is like a computer, but regardless of what some will tell you, you still need to program it. For example, some coaches will tell you to use pull-away. But then, they omit the important part........how much to pull away. "OK coach, how much?" One feet, two feet, six feet? If you don't know that, you will miss.

Also, in the initial stages of using the book, please close your off eye. This is TEMPORARY and I suggest this because I have no control over any eye dominance problems you may have. Once you know the leads, try shooting with both eyes open, see which is more consistent. And don't believe what some coaches try to tell you "two eyes is always better" Not for some of us it isn't and now Ed Solomons says the same thing.

So that's why a good, or even half decent Instructor/Coach over here teaches pull away as the first is it, because maintained lead is better? . How is a new student supposed to learn target trajectory and target/gun speed if they're guessing where the target is going? And as for telling them how much lead to apply, what one person sees as 2ft, another will see as 3. Let them apply their own lead, then tell them to half it. double it and so on.

BTW if you haven't picked up on it yet, most of us here shoot English Sporting, not Skeet

You also say you have no control over eye dominance. BS. Eye dominance checks should be done before a student pulls the trigger for the first time. Identify any possible eye dominance issue, and patch the glasses if necessary. Getting a new student to close an eye is just introducing more things they have to concentrate on. And why would I close an eye, cutting down my field of vision, if I don't need to?

Both these should be covered in a students very first lesson.

If you look on my web. site on the course design section you will see that I also install SC courses all over the US with fellow Brit Simon Hurley.

Just Googled Simon Hurley. Nice range in arts and craft supplies. Nothing about shooting.

I absolutely do not need to sell books to earn a living, but I do like to help shooters.

Maybe stop posting about it then?

 

[Freddypip]

In other words, if you try to teach someone lead and they are a swing through shooter, variation in gun speed will obviously mean that they will hit some of the targets, some of the time. So, in actual fact they are learning absolutely nothing in terms of the correct lead.

A good coach should be able to teach swing though via visual, hold and kill points to the point that there is no material variation in gun speed on a given clay – in other words the process can be repeated the required 4 or 5 times and all clays hit in the same place. If the shooter cannot perceive the lead (inclusive of gun speed) then it’s a technique (move the hold point etc) or practice issue which can be addressed. It’s not a case of switching to a maintained lead system which, in my view, would have a negative impact on the shooters skill set. What do you do about the clays that need to be shot swing through ??

Luke. By shooting maintained lead I can get a NEW shooter to break every target on a skeet field in about 2-3 hours. And more importantly, know exactly why he is breaking them.

Teaching a NEW shooter may work if they do exactly what you tell them and they nod agreement. It doesn’t mean that they have taken away a skill set. You can give a man a fish and feed him for a day etc.

Luke – You are bang on. Olympic skeet – gun down and faster out the trap. You understand the 'process', and are not led by the lead alone (or at all, perhaps). I was assuming English Skeet and then saying it “may” work; I was trying to avoid being too judgmental !!

 

[Will Hewland]

Reading this thread is about as comfortable as explaining to a group of 5 women which one of them has the correct size bottom.