Introduction and gun fit question

[westley]

I forgot to saythag the Westley is a 12 bore, 28" barrels, I/C and 3/4 chokes and weighs..............6lbs 2ozs. Get the smelling salts for Will !

 

[Savage10fp]

Anybody watched these? Interesting to see how they say they tackle clays, give there input and with shotkam footage too

 

[paul b]

Anybody watched these? Interesting to see how they say they tackle clays, give there input and with shotkam footage too

My biggest problem is i look at all this stuff,too much time on my hands ,when im not shooting im thinking about shooting.As i said in another post "rabbit hole" so much confusion and conflicting info but when the top guys tell you there way works you cant argue ,they are right and results agree.Incidentally i shot with bradd at the world sporting and he gave me some advice whilst we went round ,some stuff i thought would help and some not so much as although right was wrong for me.I also know who he went to see after ,and its the same person i messaged after shooting bad.Niether mentioned unit lead though

 

[Luke_(NL)]

If you let the clay pass and swing through it at Ol. Skeet you will be too slow on the pairs. Will work on other, not so fast skeet disciplines, but not on Ol. Skeet. The singles will work with swing through.
The good guys have their hold point, view point and perfect foot position for every stand.
The movement goes from gun down right in front of the clay. When the mount is complete the lead is also complete and the shot breaks instantly.
Looks very easy and elegant but takes a lot of practice to score at a reasonable level.
The gap between to be fast enough, controlling your lead/ barrels and not to rush and get uncontrolled at the same time is not huge.
You could train sort of an automatism to move to the targets if they always fly exact the same way. But if they are not (wind) you will miss.
And the good shots are able to correct their movement and hit the clay as the are always aware of the position of their barrels and the target.
Olympic skeet is fascinating for me but also a huge challenge.

I missed a word in my post that you quoted. I should have said:

I use a little maintained lead on pairs at stations 3, 4 and 5, but shoot everything else by letting the clay pass the barrel first. Pairs on 1,2,6 and 7 aren't any harder for it. On stations 2 and 6 I tend to miss in front of the first clay if I rush to kill-point ahead of the clay. So for me, "swing-to" (as lead is very minimal) those clays works better than maintained, and certainly better than just stabbing the barrel out and waiting for the clay. If I do this right, I shoot the first bird about 1-2 meters in before the stake, and the second bird at ca. 4 meters past the stake. At my level, that's fast enough.

Of course a lot of this personal preference, style and method. Some guys I shoot with either hold their gun close to the stake or very near the house - and they shoot 20+ averages all day long. Wouldn't work for me, as I try for as small a movement from mount to kills as I can, but to each his own. I do shoot enough Olympic to know what works for me. I'm not saying I couldn't improve - I'd certainly love get more consistent but who wouldn't...

I wholly agree on the wind-thing. Our grounds really suffer from winds (close to the shore), so there's little reliance on automatism.

 

[Daz W]

Just on the eye dominance and my experience. Due to an operatio over a 12 month period, cataract formed in my Rright"Master" eye. My vision went from 20/10 to 20/250 even when corrected. Target sports where I had shot with both eyes open became difficult. Mainly because I could see the (open) sight but not the target clearly. At no point did the sight start to align with my good non dominant eye. My grouping was awful but around the center due to aimimg at a big fuzzy blur. Not to the left which would indicate a dominance change.
My eye dominance for clays didn't change one jot. Scores didn't drop off. It seemed as long as there was enough info coming in, however bad/fuzzy the target was, it didn't matter, dominance was the same.

I don't doubt it. Never having had them, I can't say how much they affect vision, but from what I understand from a couple of gents I used to shoot with, is they do vary from glare, colour change, blurriness, light sensitivity etc. Blurriness associated with cataracts was described like having Vaseline smeared over your glasses. As you suggested, it's the degree of vision deterioration and percentage that will cause dominance change.
I tried a little experiment to see when my vision would switch from my master right to my left. Got an old clear plastic bag and fully covered my glasses lens on my dominant right eye. Went from 6 / 4 -1/2 on a Snellen chart to 6 / 9, no change in dominance. Added a layer and repeated. Kept going. 4 layers of bag and I could only just make out the top E on the top line (6 / 60). Still right eye dominant. 5 layers and I couldn't see the top line and dominance switched.
Then repeated the test, only covering the top half of my lens, to simulate your scenario of being able to see the sight but not the target. Even at 5 layers, where the target (E) was no longer visible, but my pointed finger was, dominance didn't change.

 

[Savage10fp]

Maintain/sustain lead! All three vids mention it.

3 world champs!

 

[bordergun]

https://www.eliteshooting.com/press-2019interview-Bobby-Fowler.html

 

[bordergun]

https://www.dradulovich.com/visual-focus/

 

[SpanielLover]

Striking a moving object is 100% a question of lead.
For the shooter all that really matters is perceived lead.

Gun fit, stance, hold point, chosen method are just tools to help you achieve the correct lead.
They can all be technically wrong but if the lead is right the target will break.
(Obviously the more they are all right the more chance you have of applying the correct lead every time.)

However it's not that simple...
You can have the perfect lead but still miss if you dont place your shot into the line of the target ..

Hold point and method will change perceived lead but might make achieving the right line easier.

Personally I like to use maintained on fairly simple crossing and looping targets.
When things get complex with agles, curves and backgrounds, or further out and faster, I find its advantages quickly evaporate and put zeros on my card..

That being said, anything that claims to simplify the learning process of judging and seeing the correct lead sounds worthy of investigation.
@bordergun I will be happy to read your eBook when its available.

 

[Bavarian]

I missed a word in my post that you quoted. I should have said:

I use a little maintained lead on pairs at stations 3, 4 and 5, but shoot everything else by letting the clay pass the barrel first. Pairs on 1,2,6 and 7 aren't any harder for it. On stations 2 and 6 I tend to miss in front of the first clay if I rush to kill-point ahead of the clay. So for me, "swing-to" (as lead is very minimal) those clays works better than maintained, and certainly better than just stabbing the barrel out and waiting for the clay. If I do this right, I shoot the first bird about 1-2 meters in before the stake, and the second bird at ca. 4 meters past the stake. At my level, that's fast enough.

Of course a lot of this personal preference, style and method. Some guys I shoot with either hold their gun close to the stake or very near the house - and they shoot 20+ averages all day long. Wouldn't work for me, as I try for as small a movement from mount to kills as I can, but to each his own. I do shoot enough Olympic to know what works for me. I'm not saying I couldn't improve - I'd certainly love get more consistent but who wouldn't...

I wholly agree on the wind-thing. Our grounds really suffer from winds (close to the shore), so there's little reliance on automatism.

I only shoot maintained lead on Ol. Skeet. This is a special dsicipline for me where I have to take every little chance to get faster for the doubles.
But the gap between to be too much in front and waiting for the clay (will be a miss) and to be too slow is not huge.
To get an average of 20+ i would have to train every week. So I´m fine with my 17s and 18s (and some 20s...) as I shoot it perhaps once in a month or even just every 6 weeks. And i have to admit not having the fastest reaction time and have to accept that.
But i take an advantage out of it as i have no problems with skeet- like targets on a sporting course.
And Station 8 is always fun.

 

[bordergun]

SpanielLover. You are correct about lead of course, it is THE most important component that gets shooters to the top. They may have a perfectly fitted gun, they may diligently learn to mount and swing it correctly, but if they don't know how much lead a target needs, they will miss.

As you can read on the link to the Bobby Fowler post above, it is much easier to see lead at the muzzle than out there at the target. But (unashamed bragging maybe) I am very proud of inventing the system and I was the first to use it on my students almost 35 years ago now. Don't forget, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Shooting coaches will come and go, but books that can actually teach a shooter something as complex as lead are eternal.

The Unit Lead system works and all the figures are in the book to explain exactly why it works. The Unit Lead system and the Reading Targets book are the only two books written on the subject of lead. It's just a pity that even some of the shooters that use it, do so in secret and like to dismiss it to prevent others from using it.

I will post something on here as soon as the books can be downloaded as an e file and always happily explain anything that anyone doesn't understand via e mail. Thanks.

 

[Savage10fp]

https://thevirginiasportsman.com/2019/sporting-clays-methodology
Anthony Matarese!........World champ?

 

[k80ben]

SpanielLover. You are correct about lead of course, it is THE most important component that gets shooters to the top. They may have a perfectly fitted gun, they may diligently learn to mount and swing it correctly, but if they don't know how much lead a target needs, they will miss.

As you can read on the link to the Bobby Fowler post above, it is much easier to see lead at the muzzle than out there at the target. But (unashamed bragging maybe) I am very proud of inventing the system and I was the first to use it on my students almost 35 years ago now. Don't forget, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Shooting coaches will come and go, but books that can actually teach a shooter something as complex as lead are eternal.

The Unit Lead system works and all the figures are in the book to explain exactly why it works. The Unit Lead system and the Reading Targets book are the only two books written on the subject of lead. It's just a pity that even some of the shooters that use it, do so in secret and like to dismiss it to prevent others from using it.

I will post something on here as soon as the books can be downloaded as an e file and always happily explain anything that anyone doesn't understand via e mail. Thanks.

My goodness it gets worse. Pete you havnt invented anything people have always done it both ways and one isn’t better than the other it’s what works for the individual.

1, As I’ll always come back to the same question of what your preaching is true why do u miss more than you hit?

2, why do the USA shooters say nice guy knows nothing about shooting?

3, why do none of your shooters brag on Facebook about national, world or European titles and simply improvement or pbs?

4, you say I’ve done this and know then then when questioned on it you disappear? You speak of team USA, royals and champions but when I ask them they either never heard of you or say he was around a bit but we didn’t listen?

These are not opinions these are FACTS

 

[Luke_(NL)]

I only shoot maintained lead on Ol. Skeet. This is a special dsicipline for me where I have to take every little chance to get faster for the doubles.
But the gap between to be too much in front and waiting for the clay (will be a miss) and to be too slow is not huge.
To get an average of 20+ i would have to train every week. So I´m fine with my 17s and 18s (and some 20s...) as I shoot it perhaps once in a month or even just every 6 weeks. And i have to admit not having the fastest reaction time and have to accept that.
But i take an advantage out of it as i have no problems with skeet- like targets on a sporting course.
And Station 8 is always fun.

I'm taking this to the skeet-section, as there are various threads-in-threads on vision, maintained lead v. swing-through and the coach-worthiness debate in a topic on gun-fit . See you there...

I'll re-iterate that any debate on who's better is best judged on a field. Given that it's not so much about the individuals as it is (now) about coaching, let's change the bet into each coach assembling a team of three (or five, or seven) pupils and have their students try to out-shoot one and other. Best coach = best team results, right? I'd love to see that happen, so all in favour?

 

[SpanielLover]

SpanielLover. You are correct about lead of course, it is THE most important component that gets shooters to the top. They may have a perfectly fitted gun, they may diligently learn to mount and swing it correctly, but if they don't know how much lead a target needs, they will miss.

As you can read on the link to the Bobby Fowler post above, it is much easier to see lead at the muzzle than out there at the target. But (unashamed bragging maybe) I am very proud of inventing the system and I was the first to use it on my students almost 35 years ago now. Don't forget, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Shooting coaches will come and go, but books that can actually teach a shooter something as complex as lead are eternal.

The Unit Lead system works and all the figures are in the book to explain exactly why it works. The Unit Lead system and the Reading Targets book are the only two books written on the subject of lead. It's just a pity that even some of the shooters that use it, do so in secret and like to dismiss it to prevent others from using it.

I will post something on here as soon as the books can be downloaded as an e file and always happily explain anything that anyone doesn't understand via e mail. Thanks.

Thanks @bordergun, I am always happy to read most anything about shooting technique. So I look forward to reading your ebook.
(I dont always agree with what I read, I enjoy making my own mind up.)

I'd have to agree to with @k80ben I doubt it is anything new, or that I havent thought about or touched upon at some point myself.

I'm also pretty certain you are 100% right; no shooter has got to the top without knowing exactly how far in front they are and have their own key... how else would they shoot such amazing scores time and time again.. Its probably not too much talked about specifically because there are so many variables at play, method, gun speed etc etc.. that it would be confusing to a lot of people..

Seeing/judging lead at different angles, speeds, distances is something you learn as you go, you only have a couple of different options, you judge it in front of the clay, or use the muzzle as the reference ... then you learn to see the different gaps and apply them.. you can also use the lead itself as your focus, i.e. neither focusing specifically on clay or gun
Your system sounds like its the muzzle related option and promises to give a kind of 'gap key' to learn to apply.. this needs one finger, this needs three etc..
I look forward to reading it, there very well may be be something in it that I will find interesting and useful.

@Savage10fp every high level shooter uses Maintained where it is the best (or only) option. I am sure the best could shoot 100 clays with any one method and still score high, some could shoot an entire course from the hip pretty well. I would also think most have a favoured method where the presentation allows for application of more than one; just like a golfer who naturally sees a fade or a draw, where either is the safe shot they'll play their natural shot.

 

[Savage10fp]

@Savage10fp every high level shooter uses Maintained where it is the best option. I am sure the best could shoot 100 clays with any one method and still score high, some could shoot an entire course from the hip pretty well. I would also think most have a favoured method where the presentation allows for application of more than one; just like a golfer who naturally sees a fade or a draw, where either is the safe shot they'll play their natural shot.

Fully agree @SpanielLover

 

[bordergun]

SpanielLover When you say it "isn't anything new", I'm afraid I dissagree. If you go here www.peteblakeley.com then click on testimonials on the drop-down, you will find a letter from a guy called Mark L Kiddie. Mark has since passed away, but he won everything there was to win at the competitive shotgun disciplines. Then on the same page you can read the e mail from Craig Cain who shoots on the US ZZ bird team. Then you could call the Dallas Gun Club and ask them who coached the current World champion. And I have also offered to send e mails from other current US team members, but I will absolutely not put that info. on a public forum.

When the UL book first came out, we had lots of telephone conversations about the logic of the system. Mark actually bought several copies of the book and handed them out to others, some of whom have since become successful shooting coaches here in the US.

At that time, (2007) absolutely NOBODY was suggesting applying lead at the muzzle...........but lots are now. If you can find reference to ANY coach that was saying that then, I would be more than happy to read it? And absolutely NOBODY was suggesting applying a specific measurement to apply to targets, to give them a way to develop a repertoire of sight pictures to apply leads (both standard leads and compound leads) as quickly as this system does. But unfortunately, as I said previously, some buy the book and before they read it claim that it doesn't work.

As Freddy said a few posts ago " I bought the book second hand so there is no suggestion of me agreeing with the author"......... even though I repeatedly tell buyers that "I am more than willing to explain things in the book that they don't understand". Freddy goes on to say "lead is governed by gun speed" Correct. Which is why I suggested learning the leads with maintained lead.

The book absolutely will help shooters to build up their repertoire of bird/barrel relationships on a SC course very quickly. But if any shooter reading this thinks it will fix eye dominance, gun mounting problems and variables of gun-speed, it will not, so please don't buy it.

 

[k80ben]

SpanielLover When you say it "isn't anything new", I'm afraid I dissagree. If you go here www.peteblakeley.com then click on testimonials on the drop-down, you will find a letter from a guy called Mark L Kiddie. Mark has since passed away, but won everything there was to win at the competitive shotgun disciplines.

When the UL book first came out, we had lots of telephone conversations about the logic of the system. Mark actually bought several copies of the book and handed them out to others, some of whom have since become successful shooting coaches here in the US.

At that time, (2007) absolutely NOBODY was suggesting applying lead at the muzzle...........but lots are now. If you can find reference to ANY coach that was saying that then, I would be more than happy to read it? And absolutely NOBODY was suggesting applying a specific measurement to apply to targets, to give them a way to develop a repertoire of sight pictures to apply leads (both standard leads and compound leads) as quickly as this system does. But unfortunately, as I said previously, some buy the book and before they read it claim that it doesn't work.

As Freddy said a few posts ago " I bought the book second hand so there is no suggestion of me agreeing with the author"......... even though I repeatedly tell buyers that "I am more than willing to explain things in the book that they don't understand". Freddy goes on to say "lead is governed by gun speed" Correct. Which is why I suggested learning the leans with maintained lead.

The book absolutely will help shooters to build up their repertoire of bird/barrel relationships on a SC course very quickly. But if any shooter reading this thinks it will fix eye dominance, gun mounting problems and variables of gun-speed, it will not, so please don't buy it.

Wow I shot with mickey rouse 1994 - 2009 and all the other good shots and we all saw and taught lead at muzzle measured

Benn a professional coach since 1998 and taught something that you invested in 2007 hmmmmmmmmm

 

[bordergun]

Ben. I have been coaching here in the US for 24 years and I have a good reputation. Please stop trying to discredit me on here if you don't mind? Thank you.

In answer to your question......... I actually say that in the book. So at least you know seeing lead at the muzzle has big advantages and works?

But you seem to be missing the point here. When the book was first published, lots of shooters e mailed me and said the same thing quote:- "I thought of that years ago!" Perhaps they did. But none of them took the time to put their specific findings into books. Only I did. And because I did, copyright patent forbids others from doing the same...... and many have tried. Why would they bother to do that if it doesn't work?

And nobody out there actually told you the specifics like the book does.

Student:- "Here's a springing Teal that is dropping at about 40 yards."
Coach:- "Shoot under it."
Student:- "How far under coach? 6 feet, 8 feet, 10 feet?"
Coach:- "I don't know, it's the magic of your subconscious."

From the Reading Targets book:- 40 yard dropping Teal. You will need to shoot approximately 3-4 feet under it which correlates to an inch at the muzzles. Because the teal is accelerating as it drops you must use pull-away. With this target, insert about an inch under and under and pull away just slightly faster than the target using a bowing movement. Without the bowing movement there is a tendency to pull the gun away from your face and the gun will then shoot high.

 

[Bavarian]

Which book?




No, just kidding.