Introduction and gun fit question

[Freddypip]

I'm just off to find a mirror.

 

[bordergun]

Daz W The best SC shot the World has ever known shot skeet for years before he launched into SC. Skeet will teach you how to read the angles of targets and how to interpret range.

Re. Eye dominance. Because eye dominance is neurological ie nothing to do with eye strength, diagnosing it with 100% accuracy is difficult. Some coaches will have you do the familar finger point to "prove" which is your dominant eye but this does not prove the degree of dominance. If 95% of the optic nerve "hook-ups" go to the right master eye and 5% to the off eye, the shooter can possibly shoot successfully with both eyes open. However, if 55% of the hookups connect to the master eye, 45% to the "off" eye, he will still test right eye dominant, but on occasion, depending on several things, because the dominance is not conclusive, the wrong eye can kick in and he will miss. That's why some TOP shooters wear an occluder. Of course, some coaches will happily tell you that you must keep both eyes open, you have occasions when because of this problem shoot badly because they don't want to identify it to suck you in for more and more lessons "Keep trying, you'll get it eventually." Of course after multiple lessons, you never do.

Freddy, seeing the correct sight picture is what motivates any of us to trigger the shot. That's why the top guys get to the top. It sounds like you have already made your mind up that the info. in the book won't work for you and that's a shame because many have found out that it does. But then, perhaps I am only trying to sell books?

 

[TK421]

Reading this thread is about as comfortable as explaining to a group of 5 women which one of them has the correct size bottom.

Personally I think It’s embarrassing. I’d say there’s a lot of bad form displayed here, bucket loads of arrogance and a huge dollop of ‘having the last clap’ syndrome. Sadly non of which wasn’t to be expected.
Interesting that we don’t see any other top flight coaches chipping in with a reply or opinion isn’t it? wonder why.

 

[bordergun]

TK421 You are of course 100% correct. Over the years I have done very well doing something I love and because of that, I am always happy to give shooters FREE advice. The response on here from some has been good, but there are lots of others that can't wait to trip me up. I don't need it.

 

[wynno]

Reading this thread is about as comfortable as explaining to a group of 5 women which one of them has the correct size bottom.

Will, you should know by now that they all do, unless you have a death wish

 

[Daz W]

Re. Eye dominance. Because eye dominance is neurological ie nothing to do with eye strength, diagnosing it with 100% accuracy is difficult. Some coaches will have you do the familar finger point to "prove" which is your dominant eye but this does not prove the degree of dominance. If 95% of the optic nerve "hook-ups" go to the right master eye and 5% to the off eye, the shooter can possibly shoot successfully with both eyes open. However, if 55% of the hookups connect to the master eye, 45% to the "off" eye, he will still test right eye dominant, but on occasion, depending on several things, because the dominance is not conclusive, the wrong eye can kick in and he will miss. That's why some TOP shooters wear an occluder. Of course, some coaches will happily tell you that you must keep both eyes open, you have occasions when because of this problem shoot badly because they don't want to identify it to suck you in for more and more lessons "Keep trying, you'll get it eventually." Of course after multiple lessons, you never do.

Disagree on dominance being purely neurological. Recently my prescription in my dominant eye changed, and caused eye dominance issues, as my off eye was better than my dominant eye. New glasses and now back to normal. Your brain can only interpret what your eyes can see.

You are correct about the finger pointing dominance "test". I was taught a much better test is to get the student to follow your finger left and then right with and empty gun, stopping both ways when the your finger is aligned with your eye. If the bead of the gun doesn't align with the student's shooting eye at that point, then it's likely there will be an issue with dominance and certain targets. Found a couple of friends that have eye dominance issues on targets in one particular direction using that method.

Any answer on why you would get a student with no apparent eye dominance issues to shut an eye?

 

[Freddypip]

TK421 – I understand what you are saying but to seek clarification should we all shut up ? I would be interested in knowing whether others employ maintained lead and/or value a ‘unit lead’ type approach or whether it is not considered relevant to Sporting clays. I think that’s a valid topic for discussion as opposed to ‘who’s the best’.

 

[TK421]

TK421 – I understand what you are saying but to seek clarification should we all shut up ? I would be interested in knowing whether others employ maintained lead and/or value a ‘unit lead’ type approach or whether it is not considered relevant to Sporting clays. I think that’s a valid topic for discussion as opposed to ‘who’s the best’.

I’m not drawing reference to the original question that was asked more the **** swinging that went on afterwards that I personally feel should have happened via PM and not publicly which does nobody’s rep any good. Makes great TV but FFS this is social media, should know better, or maybe that’s the whole point and purpose. Any press is better than no press ethos.

 

[bordergun]

Daz W Sorry, but I don't agree on the dominance because it is a very complicated subject. As an example multi Olympic gold medalist Kim Rhode can shoot a good score with both eyes open, but only repeatable perfect scores with the occluder. And she struggled for years with this.

Re. getting a student with no eye dominance problems to close and eye. Please read my post again. Notethat my advice was to close the off eye TEMPORARILY. Why? Because if you don't know the lead, you can absolutely shoot a good score with both eyes open. As an example on a skeet field, you can tell a new shooter to shoot directly at every target, ie zero lead, and he will break 50-60% The only targets he will miss are the middle stations because they require more lead than he will cover with his pattern. If you then show him the specific leads he needs with one eye closed (to make sure that the eye above the rib is the one he is using for the correct bird/barrel relationship) and he is consistent by doing that and he then tries to do it again and he isn't consistent, suspect a dominance problem. Some of the Olympic skeet shooters (where perfect scores are essential) even though they "test" right eye dominant will wear a small 3/16 dot because they know that in certain light conditions, targets coming from certain directions etc, the wrong eye can be persuaded to take over. There is a very good book out there that explains this in depth, I think it is on my web. site but not 100% sure. If I can find the link I will send it.

 

[bordergun]

18 e mails from the UK and Europe this morning with questions and I will answer all of them when I can. Amazon book sales gone crazy today. That's a bit baffling because the UL book is $39.95 from Amazon, $14.95 from my web. site. The Reading Targets book is $19.95 from Amazon, $12.95 from my web. site and both require expensive shipping costs to the UK and Europe. Both books will soon be available as PDF file e books for a modest price.

TK421 Once again I agree 100% and I absolutely hate confrontation on these sites......except to clarify some situations and tell the truth. I was told I can't shoot, coach, I was full of B/S and called a Charlatan so I thought a response was in order?

 

[Luke_(NL)]

@bordergun - I did and in fact I thanked you for both your emails a few pages back. You lost me at the point where according to your system I'd be applying the same lead at station 3 (and 5) and 4. Maybe that works for your students, but not for me. So yes, I did try.

I appreciate the effort but in reality I am not expecting any instructions over email (or an undoubtedly well intentioned post to "move my barrel out") to take me to straighting rounds of Olympic. I'll still read anything that claims to, because tons of practice takes far more time and costs many more shells (although its more enjoyable).

@Freddypip Worries about (judg)mental-ness in this thread have long since set sail

 

[Daz W]

Daz W Sorry, but I don't agree on the dominance because it is a very complicated subject. As an example multi Olympic gold medalist Kim Rhode can shoot a good score with both eyes open, but only repeatable perfect scores with the occluder. And she struggled for years with this.

Kind of proving my point. If the image from an eye is degraded, either by poor vision or from removing information from that eyes picture, then the brain can only process information it has. Then surely the eye providing better data to the brain will be the dominant one?

For a right shouldered shooter, partially or totally occluding the left eye ensures a better "feed" from the right eye. Devices such as the ShootSP and the bead of the Eye D rail are only visible to the right eye, again giving a more info/detailed feed to the brain than the left eye.

I know I do have some eye issues. I shoot RH, but my left eye sometimes picks up the left hand side of the barrels. Putting my LH thumb right up alongside the rib, cuts this barrel information out from my left eye picture.

Nothing neurological in that. It's all to do with the information provided by the eyes

 

[SBL]

This thread is like a motorway crash, I know I shouldn’t but can’t help taking a look while passing.
I’m not taking sides but it may be the kindest thing just to let it die now.

 

[bordergun]

Daz W Unfortunately not. I know guys that have a cataract in their right eye but the dominance test still would suggest its their dominant one.

 

[bordergun]

Luke. Thank you for the reply. Please take a look at a plan of a skeet field. You will find that the flight line of the target from the low house is parallel to stations 3 and 4. The flight line of the target from the high house is parallel to stations 4 and 5.
The distance to the target and speed of the targets in each case is identical. If the distance to the targets is identical and the speed is identical, then the lead should be identical should it not? And if the target is passing your gun, your hold point is wrong.

And the instructions don't need to be via e mail. During Covid I was coaching skeet over the phone which actually turned out to be a lot easier than it sounds. All you need is a wireless headset and a smart phone. But because of the known trajectories I can only do it with skeet not SC and I gave a money back guarantee on results like I always do. If the client didn't feel as though he got value for money with the lesson, he didn't need to pay me. Luckily............they always did.................................! Just trying to help.

 

[Paul120]

Just on the eye dominance and my experience. Due to an operatio over a 12 month period, cataract formed in my Rright"Master" eye. My vision went from 20/10 to 20/250 even when corrected. Target sports where I had shot with both eyes open became difficult. Mainly because I could see the (open) sight but not the target clearly. At no point did the sight start to align with my good non dominant eye. My grouping was awful but around the center due to aimimg at a big fuzzy blur. Not to the left which would indicate a dominance change.
My eye dominance for clays didn't change one jot. Scores didn't drop off. It seemed as long as there was enough info coming in, however bad/fuzzy the target was, it didn't matter, dominance was the same.

 

[Savage10fp]

https://www.shootclayforum.com/threads/maintained-lead.3831/

Just for fun!

 

[bordergun]

Paul120 What part of Manchester? I lived in Reddish, Stockport as a kid and wandered about down Reddish Vale with air-rifles and a Webley and Scot .410. I got caught poaching pheasants at Tatton Hall, Knutsford by the gamekeepers when I was about 14. Happy, happy days!

 

[Bavarian]

I shoot (Olympic) skeet almost exclusively (save for the Sporting skeet nationals and a little practice for same) and would not advise a beginner to shoot maintained lead on any skeet target. In my view, to shoot maintained lead you have to know trajectory and speed of the clay, which takes some getting used to. ML also requires a particularly consistent mount and swing speed. I use a little maintained lead on pairs at stations 3, 4 and 5, but shoot everything by letting the clay pass the barrel first. Maybe that's why I cannot compete with the likes of Vincent Hancock, but I can hold my own among lesser mortals.

If you let the clay pass and swing through it at Ol. Skeet you will be too slow on the pairs. Will work on other, not so fast skeet disciplines, but not on Ol. Skeet. The singles will work with swing through.
The good guys have their hold point, view point and perfect foot position for every stand.
The movement goes from gun down right in front of the clay. When the mount is complete the lead is also complete and the shot breaks instantly.
Looks very easy and elegant but takes a lot of practice to score at a reasonable level.
The gap between to be fast enough, controlling your lead/ barrels and not to rush and get uncontrolled at the same time is not huge.
You could train sort of an automatism to move to the targets if they always fly exact the same way. But if they are not (wind) you will miss.
And the good shots are able to correct their movement and hit the clay as the are always aware of the position of their barrels and the target.
Olympic skeet is fascinating for me but also a huge challenge.

 

[westley]

All I would say in favour of gun fitting by way of a pattern plate, is that my S x S Westley Richards was altered to fit me using a pattern plate at their old works in Birmingham centre. There were kids playing rugby on the college playing field about 40 yards away. "Oh, they are used to it", I was told. However, it took over 2 weeks to bend the wood without it springing back. I got the gun back in June, 1981, just as the riots kicked off in Liverpool, so they sent it by Securicor. I have NEVER shot so well with any other gun that I have owned. ( and there have been a few). As I am game shooting next Saturday, I took the Westley to the clay ground yesterday, it has not been out since January. After I had finished my usual clay shooting, I put the O/U away and took the Westley to 3 stands where there were high (ish) crossers of one form or another. Of my 24 shots with 21 gram Eley Firsts, I shot a 20. Since 1981 I have used the Westley for all of my game shooting, it has not been 'refitted ' to suit my ageing physique( as some seem to think an 'essential') and I have averaged 2 for1 throughout my game shooting career. I have used it on some really high bird shoots where everyone else seemed to go for 32" Trap guns and heavy loads, I stuck with my 32 gram 6's Hull cartridges and shot just as many birds as the other guns. Having confidence in your equipment is half way to shooting well...........I shall find out next Saturday.