Introduction and gun fit question

[SpanielLover]

(SpanielLover When you say it "isn't anything new"..)
I am not knocking you, just assuming the concept itself is not new.
Quite likely archers at Agincourt discussed pull away vs maintained, forward allowance methods etc.
Will take you at your word that you were the first to do a deep dive and put it in print, that really doesn't concern me..
I do look forward to reading the eBook when its available, the topic is of interest

 

[bordergun]

SpanielLover. I know you're not, I sincerely apologize if my reply sounded like that.

Of course, one-on-one coaching is always the best way and here in the US and the UK there are some excellent coaches.......but there are some that are not. One-on-one lessons are expensive and if you get a coach that can explain lead in a logical way, you will progress very, very quickly. But if he can't, don't continue to pay him. It should not take dozens of lessons and several years to get to the top, the UL and Reading Targets books will be modestly priced and a much better investment. But you still need to read them and practice.

And before anyone asks, next time you are on a skeet field, stand on #7. Look across at the protective fence next to low #1 (which on most skeet fields is approx. 6- 7 feet high) and mount your gun at the base of the fence. At 40 yards, 3 feet will look like an inch at your muzzle.

 

[aynesie]

Watched a video recently on YouTube discussing lead and methods and noticed that there appears to be little difference in lead picture which didn't make sense. So I've just screenshot the video and photoshopped the result. See video and my pic below. Interested in everyone's thoughts on this.

 

[bordergun]

Aynasie. What you see there is exactly why most shooters struggle to apply lead out there at the target. There is a better way.

 

[k80ben]

Ben. I have been coaching here in the US for 24 years and I have a good reputation. Please stop trying to discredit me on here if you don't mind? Thank you.

In answer to your question......... I actually say that in the book. So at least you know seeing lead at the muzzle has big advantages and works?

But you seem to be missing the point here. When the book was first published, lots of shooters e mailed me and said the same thing quote:- "I thought of that years ago!" Perhaps they did. But none of them took the time to put their specific findings into books. Only I did. And because I did, copyright patent forbids others from doing the same...... and many have tried. Why would they bother to do that if it doesn't work?

And nobody out there actually told you the specifics like the book does.

Student:- "Here's a springing Teal that is dropping at about 40 yards."
Coach:- "Shoot under it."
Student:- "How far under coach? 6 feet, 8 feet, 10 feet?"
Coach:- "I don't know, it's the magic of your subconscious."

From the Reading Targets book:- 40 yard dropping Teal. You will need to shoot approximately 3-4 feet under it which correlates to an inch at the muzzles. Because the teal is accelerating as it drops you must use pull-away. With this target, insert about an inch under and under and pull away just slightly faster than the target using a bowing movement. Without the bowing movement there is a tendency to pull the gun away from your face and the gun will then shoot high.

I’ve spoken to everyone and they all say same thing “nice guy knows nothing about shooting”

I think you’re a champion in your own mind. Your probably very good for beginners and c class level shooters and I admire that everyone has a place and you should monetise that market as best you can but after that your gonna have to move lanes and let the guys that know what their doing take over

NO CURRENT / CONSISTENT TOP SHOOTER SHOOTS MAINTAINED AS A PRIMARY METHOD

 

[Freddypip]

My copy of “You’re Behind It” arrived on Monday. I have spent about an hour on it including reading in full the chapter on the “Unit Lead System”. For me it is a rework of the maintained lead system, and dependent on gun speed matching clay speed. That may or may not be a good thing.

Peter – Could I ask your permission to quote the last paragraph on Page 35 starting, “So why do I suggest . . .”. I think it pretty well sums up the system & book.

 

[bordergun]

Of course Freddy. And of course I absolutely do suggest using maintained lead to initially visualize the correct lead. Use any other method, swing through pull-away etc. the slight read variation of gunspeed will obviously change the amount of visual lead you see. That's why for competitive shotgunning you should be using maintained. That's why most top skeet shooters use it for consistency and that's why most SC shooters suggest the same. And please note that I say the "unit" is a "brief visual indication of the correct lead." Bobby Fowler uses inches, I use units or "fingers". Both work.

And, if it is as you say "it is a rework of the maintained lead system" Is there any other documentary evidence out there that tells you specifically the correct amount of lead you need by using the maintained lead system? If so, please let me know where?

 

[Freddypip]

Quote from "You're Behind It", Page 35 (bottom para).

“So why do I suggest using a 4 unit lead on both the 15 to 20 yard crossing shot and the 20 to 30 yard crossing shot. Because we have two variables to consider as we trigger the shot. These are the slight differences in gun speed and the shooter reaction time. But the “margin of error” with these two variables should be compensated for by the width of the pattern Using a skeet choke, the pattern width at 15 yards would be about 20 inches but almost twice this (38 inches) at 30 yards. By the same rule the pattern from an improved choke at 20 yards (approx. 18 inches) would be more than twice this (42 inches) at 40 yards. The more experienced shots become so precise that when the shoot they have the ability to “tailor” the target. What this actually means is that, by using a sustained lead method, there gun speed is synchronized exactly with the speed of the target. If they take the front edge or back edge off the target they can they adjust their sight picture so that, with the next shot, they can center it.”

I can't say I'm aware of a measurement type system. I first shot clay's in 1985 on a summer school course run by David Goss for Loughborough Uni. He used fingers at the barrel end and I have done so (only when absolutely required) since. As I have previously said for me, lead is the last thing on the list and only then, by reference to the shooter, as its perceived differently.

No idea where David Goss is now - he ran a shop in Sutton in Ashfield, Notts in the 80's.

 

[k80ben]

Quote from "You're Behind It", Page 35 (bottom para).

“So why do I suggest using a 4 unit lead on both the 15 to 20 yard crossing shot and the 20 to 30 yard crossing shot. Because we have two variables to consider as we trigger the shot. These are the slight differences in gun speed and the shooter reaction time. But the “margin of error” with these two variables should be compensated for by the width of the pattern Using a skeet choke, the pattern width at 15 yards would be about 20 inches but almost twice this (38 inches) at 30 yards. By the same rule the pattern from an improved choke at 20 yards (approx. 18 inches) would be more than twice this (42 inches) at 40 yards. The more experienced shots become so precise that when the shoot they have the ability to “tailor” the target. What this actually means is that, by using a sustained lead method, there gun speed is synchronized exactly with the speed of the target. If they take the front edge or back edge off the target they can they adjust their sight picture so that, with the next shot, they can center it.”

I can't say I'm aware of a measurement type system. I first shot clay's in 1985 on a summer school course run by David Goss for Loughborough Uni. He used fingers at the barrel end and I have done so (only when absolutely required) since. As I have previously said for me, lead is the last thing on the list and only then, by reference to the shooter, as its perceived differently.

No idea where David Goss is now - he ran a shop in Sutton in Ashfield, Notts in the 80's.

Is it April fool lol

 

[bordergun]

Freddy. Thanks for your comments. Not really sure what you're getting at with that paragraph but the figures are correct. The shot charge slows down exponentially as range increases.

If the David Goss was anything to do with Goss Petcher (Dave Goss and Gwynn Petcher) Guns in Nottingham, he was also a big friend of a guy called Don Watson who used to shoot for England at one time. Don was a friend of mine for many, many years, (over 20) he had a cottage in Rowanburn and I fished (and shot) with him for many years. My fishing Tackle and gun Shop was in Langholm, on the Border Esk river, about 6 miles from Rowanburn. Don knew all about applying lead in "fingers". I coached that way back then, probably well over 40 years ago now. I was the one that put the system in black and white in book form to try to help shooters. I also showed the system to John Topliss at Stile Hollow shooting ground. But never tried to put a specific measurement to the "units" until I wrote the book.

 

[Savage10fp]

 

[vmax1010]

Well my curiosity got the better of me so I found the book on Amazon for £33, if after studying and putting the system in to practice my scores increase four fold I will make a shrine and geneflect my self to it every day

 

[bordergun]

vmax1010 Not been here for a day or so. The book was published in 2007. I'm quite surprised that you and Freddy would spend that much on a second hand version of the original book when the second printing that came out in 2013 had some more updated info. in it and at the moment the next version in PDF file format (with even more info.) can very shortly be electronically downloaded for about $12.00?

 

[vmax1010]

Personally I like physical books and as your website won't post to the UK it was Amazon, if it's as good as you claim it'll be well worth the £33 won't it

 

[Iggy]

I don’t want to get embroiled in any arguments, but I have a copy of this book that a bought a few years ago when I first stated.

I couldn’t find a copy either so wrote to Peter who very kindly posted me a copy himself from the US and signed it too. I dont want to lose this book or give it away but if you’d like to borrow it (provided you agree to return it) I’m happy to send it.

As I said, I don’t want to get into any arguments but as a beginner o found it helpful, and several years into shooting, I still refer back to a few of its fundamentals which help me keep it simple.

Im not suggesting it’s the best advice out there or there isn’t something better. I’m just trying to help a fellow shooter, which hopefully is a nice thing to do

If we are still allowed to do nice things

Thanks.

 

[bordergun]

vmax1010 Depends which version you get. The original print run was for 5,000 in 2007. The book sold well and was then re-printed in 2013 (another 5,000) with some additional info. as a response to readers. There are very few copies of that re-run left so it will be released again as a PDF file e book VERY shortly. Once again, the new copy will be an improved version with additional information. I didn't say I won't post it to the UK, I said the cost of doing that is almost prohibitive.

Some shooters have a strange interpretation of coaching. Please take a look at all the videos on YouTube these days where a coach is standing behind the shooter and telling him:- "negative lead, positive lead, more lead, less lead etc." In other words THE COACH is shooting the targets not the shooter. The Reading Targets book already does that! The UL book explains (as well as anyone can I believe) the theory of why it works. Why? because that's necessary for a shooter to interpret the variables for himself. In other words, as soon as you remove the coach from standing behind him, he will miss.

Anyway, If you want a book that shows the exact sight pictures, taken with a barrel camera, for skeet, trap and SC buy Reading Targets. It will be available as an e book for electronic download shortly. I still have a bank account in the UK. If you don't believe the book is absolutely THE best value for money book on teaching the sight pictures you need, I will happily refund the FULL cost of buying the book. How does that sound?

IGGY Thank you so much. Some on here can't seem to understand that if the UL doesn't work, after 10,000 copies sold Worldwide, why are people continuing to buy it?

 

[k80ben]

vmax1010 Depends which version you get. The original print run was for 5,000 in 2007. The book sold well and was then re-printed in 2013 (another 5,000) with some additional info. as a response to readers. There are very few copies of that re-run left so it will be released again as a PDF file e book VERY shortly. Once again, the new copy will be an improved version with additional information. I didn't say I won't post it to the UK, I said the cost of doing that is almost prohibitive.

Some shooters have a strange interpretation of coaching. Please take a look at all the videos on YouTube these days where a coach is standing behind the shooter and telling him:- "negative lead, positive lead, more lead, less lead etc." In other words THE COACH is shooting the targets not the shooter. The Reading Targets book already does that! The UL book explains (as well as anyone can I believe) the theory of why it works. Why? because that's necessary for a shooter to interpret the variables for himself. In other words, as soon as you remove the coach from standing behind him, he will miss.

Anyway, If you want a book that shows the exact sight pictures, taken with a barrel camera, for skeet, trap and SC buy Reading Targets. It will be available as an e book for electronic download shortly. I still have a bank account in the UK. If you don't believe the book is absolutely THE best value for money book on teaching the sight pictures you need, I will happily refund the FULL cost of buying the book. How does that sound?

IGGY Thank you so much. Some on here can't seem to understand that if the UL doesn't work, after 10,000 copies sold Worldwide, why are people continuing to buy it?

These coaches you criticise win events and the students win events

Then there is the oracle peter if it wasn’t for gravity would miss the floor, takes pictures with shooters and calls them students but has no evidence of any improvement by anybody lol

Surely the self proclaimed inventor of everything and self proclaimed best coach should be able to fix his own poor performances. Peter if the books that good I suggest u stay off here and start reading it A LOT

Yup let’s all be like Peter

 

[bordergun]

Some talk big to try to make others look small, it's a common strategy.

 

[k80ben]

Some talk big to try to make others look small, it's a common strategy.

Others state facts (and can back it up) and then the pretenders that have claimed to be things they are not dwindle away behind more false claims

 

[bordergun]

Of course. But the FACTS are there for all to see here:- www.peteblakeley.com over a 50 year period. Please do not continue to put statements that I can't coach, can't shoot and I'm a Charlatan on a PUBLIC FORUM. I don't do it and that's the second time I have asked you on here to refrain from doing that. Thank you.