Reasons for missing

[Oldblaster]

In my experience if you gun fits and the correct choke, the main reason for missing long targets is taking your eye off the target, and looking at the end of the barrel to check your lead, and of course you will miss behind!

 

[k80ben]

In my experience if you gun fits and the correct choke, the main reason for missing long targets is taking your eye off the target, and looking at the end of the barrel to check your lead, and of course you will miss behind!

If you watch nearly every top shot you will see the gun stop. So much has changed and these coaches from the internet have lost touch

The new machines, the amount of pressure in the sport of your not doing it u can’t teach it

 

[bordergun]

Freddypip Thank you for your answer. So, "if you did learn from a book" which books that (specifically covering lead requirement) did you learn from?

And in answer to your question, on a skeet field, it would be unusual if I missed a target due to misreading but of course, there are only 14 sight pictures and I can usually run 25 straight. I suspect I would still be able to shoot a good score on SC these days, perhaps 80 plus? And then I guess the misses could be due to a number of things, but I don't think many would be from a mis-read. And if I miss, luckily I have the ability to re-evaluate and usually correct on the next shot. Does that answer your question?

Final edit:- If you don't learn lead from reading books based on trigonometry and ballistic science and you learn it from your coach, how does your coach teach it? Or is that a secret?

 

[Freddypip]

We are again talking about lead & books and soon we will be onto your books and what we can all learn from you & them. I will however entertain your question - and probably respond for the last time.

A few (and I mean few) of the books I have read are,

• A Manual of Clayshooting – Craddock.
• Shotgun Shooting - John Brindle.
• Clay Target Shooting – Paul Bentley
• Positive Shooting – Michael Yardley
• Breaking Clays – Chris Batha.
• And your book – You’re behind it.

The Chris Batha book is a very good introduction. I also found Chris’ videos on You Tube helpful and he talks through lead on the skeet layout and other types of target. It’s the book I would recommend to beginners and I still find it a useful reference albeit having read it once it's rarely opened.

I have found very little text useful when it comes to lead. It’s a personal thing dictated as much by gun speed and visual perception as trigonometry. The Brindle book makes this point (pages 42 to 46). I understand your unit lead method but its reliant on a form of maintained lead. The Brindle book (1984) notes maintained lead as the exception to the general position that "the right apparent lead for a particular bird or target is different for different people" so I understand why you have adopted it. Incidentally the Yardley book discusses techniques and describes maintained as "American Maintained Lead" and links it to skeet shooting and gives the example of Ed Scherer who did diagrams of lead for the skeet field in the 70s & 80s. In short there is nothing new in what your book says expect for breaking it down into units.

I understand that for the beginner they can be told what to do and a prescriptive system may have some benefit (initially). For me – and I expect many on this forum - that moment is long gone and having shot maintained lead too much over the past few years I am now peddling back to use pull away and other methods where they are relevant and appropriate; maintained has its place but only when appropriate.

Lead is the last thing I discuss with my coach. I cannot emphasis that enough. Method is much more important and learning to apply it consistently. That’s what we discuss. Everything else has to be right before lead is consistent and only then can we say more or less – the exact measurement is, as above, personal. When being coached, 95% percent of the time my error assessing the lead (which I might do with 5% of traps) is corrected by a change in technique or correcting an error on my part. Everything else being right, but the lead wrong, is such a low percentage and getting smaller. Occasionally during lessons clays are shot where the lead seems odd – way too much or too little but that's largely to understand the clay's presentation and not to ‘measure’ lead as such - I am learning by exception not by measurement.

To emphasis, books have their place but they cannot explain, by reference to lead, the personal collation between visual point, hold point and kill point. They cannot explain by reference to lead, differences in muscle speed and reaction time. By using a standard 'measure' of lead you are forcing all of the other factors to fit - like making a tennis player hit the ball over the net at a specific speed.

Now, I’ve answered your question politely and with detail. Could you now give your books a rest ?

Could you also provide some comment on why you think you miss on a sporting layout. Skeet is a discipline - practice makes perfect & muscle memory it’s part also. Sporting less so and if you have something constructive to say about that I’m happy to hear it. If, as you say, you rarely get the lead wrong, with an average of 80 odd there must be other factors which warrant (much) more consideration than any formal method to calculate lead. That's what bothers me here - if you are mid 80s and you have lead sorted - perhaps it's not the answer to the question you have asked.

 

[Robden]

If you watch nearly every top shot you will see the gun stop. So much has changed and these coaches from the internet have lost touch

The new machines, the amount of pressure in the sport of your not doing it u can’t teach it

Agree 100%. Watching a lot of shooting of the top boys on Utube over the years, I noticed some time ago that the majority of them momentarily stop the gun when pulling the trigger, and then continue their swing. In fact, I'm not sure that they realize themselves that they're doing it.

 

[SBL]

We are again talking about lead & books and soon we will be onto your books and what we can all learn from you & them. I will however entertain your question - and probably respond for the last time.

A few (and I mean few) of the books I have read are,

• A Manual of Clayshooting – Craddock.
• Shotgun Shooting - John Brindle.
• Clay Target Shooting – Paul Bentley
• Positive Shooting – Michael Yardley
• Breaking Clays – Chris Batha.
• And your book – You’re behind it.

The Chris Batha book is a very good introduction. I also found Chris’ videos on You Tube helpful and he talks through lead on the skeet layout and other types of target. It’s the book I would recommend to beginners and I still find it a useful reference albeit having read it once it's rarely opened.

I have found very little text useful when it comes to lead. It’s a personal thing dictated as much by gun speed and visual perception as trigonometry. The Brindle book makes this point (pages 42 to 46). I understand your unit lead method but its reliant on a form of maintained lead. The Brindle book (1984) notes maintained lead as the exception to the general position that "the right apparent lead for a particular bird or target is different for different people" so I understand why you have adopted it. Incidentally the Yardley book discusses techniques and describes maintained as "American Maintained Lead" and links it to skeet shooting and gives the example of Ed Scherer who did diagrams of lead for the skeet field in the 70s & 80s. In short there is nothing new in what your book says expect for breaking it down into units.

I understand that for the beginner they can be told what to do and a prescriptive system may have some benefit (initially). For me – and I expect many on this forum - that moment is long gone and having shot maintained lead too much over the past few years I am now peddling back to use pull away and other methods where they are relevant and appropriate; maintained has its place but only when appropriate.

Lead is the last thing I discuss with my coach. I cannot emphasis that enough. Method is much more important and learning to apply it consistently. That’s what we discuss. Everything else has to be right before lead is consistent and only then can we say more or less – the exact measurement is, as above, personal. When being coached, 95% percent of the time my error assessing the lead (which I might do with 5% of traps) is corrected by a change in technique or correcting an error on my part. Everything else being right, but the lead wrong, is such a low percentage and getting smaller. Occasionally during lessons clays are shot where the lead seems odd – way too much or too little but that's largely to understand the clay's presentation and not to ‘measure’ lead as such - I am learning by exception not by measurement.

To emphasis, books have their place but they cannot explain, by reference to lead, the personal collation between visual point, hold point and kill point. They cannot explain by reference to lead, differences in muscle speed and reaction time. By using a standard 'measure' of lead you are forcing all of the other factors to fit - like making a tennis player hit the ball over the net at a specific speed.

Now, I’ve answered your question politely and with detail. Could you now give your books a rest ?

Could you also provide some comment on why you think you miss on a sporting layout. Skeet is a discipline - practice makes perfect & muscle memory it’s part also. Sporting less so and if you have something constructive to say about that I’m happy to hear it. If, as you say, you rarely get the lead wrong, with an average of 80 odd there must be other factors which warrant (much) more consideration than any formal method to calculate lead. That's what bothers me here - if you are mid 80s and you have lead sorted - perhaps it's not the answer to the question you have asked.thats a fantastic response, Freddypip.

That’s a very comprehensive answer to the question, Freddypip.
Thanks for your opinions and time spent answering.

 

[bordergun]

Freddypip. Thank you for your very comprehensive answer. In answer to the question that you asked in post #21 I will answer it now if I may?

Most shooters would say without a moments hesitation that they miss targets because they don't know the correct lead. If you doubt that, please ask them yourself as I have done over the years.

You say lead is the last thing that you discuss with your coach. IMO coaches that tell you the correct method is more important are telling you that because they can't explain how much you need in logical terms. Telling a shooter that "with hard focus on the target and the correct foot positions the magic of your subconscious will give you the correct amount" doesn't work. What that coach is actually telling you is that even though you are paying him large amounts of money for the lessons, you need to figure the correct lead requirement out for yourself. In some cases, that takes years and it shouldn't do.

Every method, relies on seeing the correct amount of lead as you trigger the shot and it doesn't matter if it is swing through, pull away maintained or any other method. If you don't know the visual lead requirement, you will miss. I can expand on this if you wish but the answer is already in one of the articles that I wrote over 25 years ago for sporting clay magazine and that is on my web. site.

And as for my shotgun proficiency, I answered as honestly as I could. I think you will find that a score of mid 80's for a super vet is very respectable.

So, yes I sell e books and most find them useful. And I sell them in the UK because I was approached by some shooters over there who found that the hard copies were now very expensive.

And I honestly believe that at the price, the books give shooters a logical way to intercept targets a lot quicker that taking multiple lessons from a coach that can't explain lead. I think that's got to be a good thing.

 

[SBL]

Freddypip. Thank you for your very comprehensive answer. In answer to the question that you asked in post #21 I will answer it now if I may?

Most shooters would say without a moments hesitation that they miss targets because they don't know the correct lead. If you doubt that, please ask them yourself as I have done over the years.

You say lead is the last thing that you discuss with your coach. IMO coaches that tell you the correct method is more important are telling you that because they can't explain how much you need in logical terms. Telling a shooter that "with hard focus on the target and the correct foot positions the magic of your subconscious will give you the correct amount" doesn't work. What that coach is actually telling you is that even though you are paying him large amounts of money for the lessons, you need to figure the correct lead requirement out for yourself. In some cases, that takes years and it shouldn't do.

Every method, relies on seeing the correct amount of lead as you trigger the shot and it doesn't matter if it is swing through, pull away maintained or any other method. If you don't know the visual lead requirement, you will miss. I can expand on this if you wish but the answer is already in one of the articles that I wrote over 25 years ago for sporting clay magazine and that is on my web. site.

And as for my shotgun proficiency, I answered as honestly as I could. I think you will find that a score of mid 80's for a super vet is very respectable.

So, yes I sell e books and most find them useful. And I sell them in the UK because I was approached by some shooters over there who found that the hard copies were now very expensive.

And I honestly believe that at the price, the books give shooters a logical way to intercept targets a lot quicker that taking multiple lessons from a coach that can't explain lead. I think that's got to be a good thing.

Pete, I don’t think anyone disagrees with you as such but lead alone does not give the final answer. As well you know, observed lead is not always what it seams given methods and speed. 2 people using the same lead but different methods will have very different results. Without a consistent method including speed, surely there isnt a consistent lead and so in my mind, it makes complete sense learning the method before the lead??
Your posts (in my opinion) are all designed to get people to buy your books.
I think you’d have found it much more productive to have become a valued contributor to the forum and sales would have increased from there.

 

[Freddypip]

Peter.

What you have posted above has been posted many times before - I get your rationale.

What I am interested in is the other 15. If you are mid 80s - and I agree that's not bad at all for a super vet - why do you miss the others ?

 

[bordergun]

SBL I agree with what you say and that's why I suggested reading what I wrote about exactly that subject "No Magic Method" 25 years ago for SC mag. But the part about selling books? At 8 GBP a pop? And the PROFIT margin on that is about half? Come on! Really? I'm nearly giving them away as it is.

Some have very kindly put honest reviews on here and I really appreciate that. But some of the ostriches on here that try feed shooters complete coaching hogwash is ridiculous and designed to swell their wallets, not help shooters. Years of lessons to learn to read targets? Give me a break.

 

[FESkent]

I shoot for the enjoyment not to compete, at the local club this morning i shot 36 out of 50 top score was 41 so a reasonable result as far as i was concerned. I did not feel i missed any due to the wrong lead. A bouncing rabbit missed, the others due to rushing possibly wrong hold, start point, others due to wrong line or break in concentration. I start gun down and i know that costs me a few clays every time I go, but I spend most of my shooting time in a hide. Self taught, no coach, book john bidwell move mount shoot and then youtube.

 

[Dave_3]

Perhaps being brand spanking new to the sport I can offer some insight. I have shot a grand total if 500 cartridges.
I had my first lesson today and one of the things we discussed is why on one shot I completely vaporise the clay and the next shot I miss. I my head I am shooting the clay with the exact same lead each time. He told me the miss was due to the inconsistent hold point. On some shots I was holding too close to the visual pick up causing me to over accelerate to a target that is slowing down. On other shots I was inconsistent/impatient when waiting for the clay to reach my hold point. Some times I went early and (causing me to wait for the clay) and other times I went on time. When I did the same I hit 8 in a row. Very nice feeling on a rapid left to right crosser.

 

[bordergun]

FESkent Of course. So did I with a Webley and Scott .410 at 9 years old. Lots of shooters are self taught, but I have an enquiring and innovative mind and over the years I tried to come up with something that would make things a lot easier for shooters. Most are pleased with the results, but there I go again, trying to sell books......

 

[bordergun]

Dave 3. What your coach told you about the difference in gunspeed was absolutely correct. And what he told you about your hold point was correct. That's why (a new shooter especially) you should be shooting maintained lead. Why? Because with ANY other method, that variation in gunspeed will give you a different sight picture and absolutely ZERO consistency. In other words, fast swing the target breaks, slow swing it doesn't. With pull away, exactly how far do you pull away? One foot, two feet, three feet? Vary your gunspeed, you will obviously vary the sight picture. And if your coach can't tell you what the lead is, you are wasting your money.

At your level, your coach should be giving you a consistent bird/barrel relationship that you know to be correct, then tweaking your visual and hold points. Why, because ALL the top shooters know what specific sight picture they need to break the target and seeing it is what motivates them to pull the trigger. The sooner you build up a repertoire of sight pictures, the sooner you will get to the top.

And from what you said there:- "In my head I am shooting the same lead" my guess is that your coach also told you that you must keep both eyes open, right?

 

[Dave_3]

Dave 3. And from what you said there:- "In my head I am shooting the same lead" my guess is that your coach also told you that you must keep both eyes open, right?

No, not at all. I have a dot on my left lense and he said if it's works for me then stick with it. Otherwise just close the eye. Personally when I close the eye I struggle with depth perception and after a fair few birds my eye aches. The dot on my lense works a treat and I dont know it's there

 

[bordergun]

That's great, I always teach a new shooter with his off eye closed, then when he breaks the target consistently, if his consistency deteriorates with both eyes, suspect as problem. Some top coaches here in the US do the same.

Incidentally, I consider the Italian ISSF shooters to be some of the absolute best in the World. The coaches always teach lead from the get go.

 

[k80ben]

Perhaps being brand spanking new to the sport I can offer some insight. I have shot a grand total if 500 cartridges.
I had my first lesson today and one of the things we discussed is why on one shot I completely vaporise the clay and the next shot I miss. I my head I am shooting the clay with the exact same lead each time. He told me the miss was due to the inconsistent hold point. On some shots I was holding too close to the visual pick up causing me to over accelerate to a target that is slowing down. On other shots I was inconsistent/impatient when waiting for the clay to reach my hold point. Some times I went early and (causing me to wait for the clay) and other times I went on time. When I did the same I hit 8 in a row. Very nice feeling on a rapid left to right crosser.

Sounds like your getting much better advice there than in here mate, maintained should be the very last thing you learn due to it’s so many down sides.

Pull away and swing through are the foundations of modern day shooting.

For all the readers of your missing 20 off your miss reading a lot of them and fundamentally your floored

 

[FESkent]

Dave 3. What your coach told you about the difference in gunspeed was absolutely correct. And what he told you about your hold point was correct. That's why (a new shooter especially) you should be shooting maintained lead. Why? Because with ANY other method, that variation in gunspeed will give you a different sight picture and absolutely ZERO consistency. In other words, fast swing the target breaks, slow swing it doesn't. With pull away, exactly how far do you pull away? One foot, two feet, three feet? Vary your gunspeed, you will obviously vary the sight picture. And if your coach can't tell you what the lead is, you are wasting your money.

At your level, your coach should be giving you a consistent bird/barrel relationship that you know to be correct, then tweaking your visual and hold points. Why, because ALL the top shooters know what specific sight picture they need to break the target and seeing it is what motivates them to pull the trigger. The sooner you build up a repertoire of sight pictures, the sooner you will get to the top.

And from what you said there:- "In my head I am shooting the same lead" my guess is that your coach also told you that you must keep both eyes open, right?

Have you ever heard of George Digweed listen to what he has to say about Maintained lead.

watch from about 17:40

 

[Dave_3]

Sounds like your getting much better advice there than in here mate, maintained should be the very last thing you learn due to it’s so many down sides.

Pull away and swing through are the foundations of modern day shooting.

For all the readers of your missing 20 off your miss reading a lot of them and fundamentally your floored

He told me to focus on pull away. For now he wants me to use that meathod on all targets. Down the road he said he'll explain what methods are best for different targets but he said my head will explode if we go into that now. He wants my primary focus to be on a solid set up with consistency in execution being king

 

[bordergun]

FESkent. I think George also says you get a longer shot-string with a tight choke doesn't he?