Reasons for missing

[bordergun]

Common sense should tell most shooters that if they try to learn to see the correct lead requirement by learning to shoot with a method where you have variable gun speed, ie swing through or pull away, two things will vary that they have no control over from shot to shot. These are:- speed of swing and shooter reaction time. If those vary, the sight picture will also vary and they will lose consistency. Once they learn to shoot and build up a library of sight pictures with a sustained lead method, then it is easy to apply what they have learned to any other method. But of course I'm only saying that to sell books.

Dave3 I hope your coach told you how far to pull away? Or did he leave that to "the magic of your subconscious"?

 

[Dave_3]

Common sense should tell most shooters that if they try to learn to see the correct lead requirement by learning to shoot with a method where you have variable gun speed, ie swing through or pull away, two things will vary that they have no control over from shot to shot. These are:- speed of swing and shooter reaction time. If those vary, the sight picture will also vary and they will lose consistency. Once they learn to shoot and build up a library of sight pictures with a sustained lead method, then it is easy to apply what they have learned to any other method. But of course I'm only saying that to sell books.

Dave3 I hope your coach told you how far to pull away? Or did he leave that to "the magic of your subconscious"?

My coach started off the session by simply watching me and asking me how I see and read the target (where I see the kill point and hold point ect). He didn't talk about lead at all so I assume he was satisfied with that aspect of my shooting. Like I said he told me the culprit to my misses was my inconsistency to my set up and execution. On one target he said I pulled the trigger in 3 totally different places (I thought they where identical). He told me I needed some patience, composure and not to crap myself when I saw a fast bird. All that with a consistent hold point and I was smashing almost every target.
He also said I had a tendency to lunge forward when I pulled the trigger ( causing me to drop the barrel)

 

[FESkent]

FESkent. I think George also says you get a longer shot-string with a tight choke doesn't he?

When you have won as many titles as George I will buy your books. or rather Sir George MBE.

 

[bordergun]

What "picture" Freddy? Without showing him the lead he needs? Sorry Freddy, top shooters know exactly the lead they need on a target before they decide on a hold point etc. That's why you get a see pair? In other words, not much point in deciding to shoot a target as a crosser if by the time you pull the trigger it is also dropping? You must know your sight picture before hand so that if necessary, you can adjust. Your hold and look points depend on that.

If it was a soft course, I would probably hit most of them. If some targets were long, even though I would evaluate them and figure out the best way to shoot them, a sudden puff of wind could cause a miss? But rest assured, I would know exactly why I missed. Not exactly the "What's hit is history, what's missed is mystery" I know is it?

And as I have told you before, sometimes top shooters don't do what they say they do. Years ago George was telling everyone he shot everything swing through. It's obvious by watching him and I have pulled targets for him at the Dallas Gun Club on occasion, that he doesn't. He uses all methods and the laws of physics dictate that the "window of opportunity" for a successful shot is better with sustained lead than any other method. Perhaps you should read the article on my web. site?

BTW you do realize that three times World FITASC champion John Bidwell almost exclusively used maintained lead? And 99% of top skeet shooters also do because it gives greater consistency than any other method?

BTW, can I ask how long you have been shooting competitively?

 

[bordergun]

Freddypip No, I'm not saying that Freddypip. I'm not really sure where you are going with this? I may miss the other 15 because of a variety of reasons. But, I firmly believe that the majority of shooters if you asked them that question, would reply they miss because they couldn't decipher the variables. And if you have a coach that can't explain lead in a logical way, or how far underneath you must shoot on a dropping target, it will take you a long time to get to the top.

I give my clients specifics. As an example, let's say you have a target that in the area you intend to shoot it, is a candidate for a box shot, ie the line is approximately 45 degrees to the horizontal. At 20 yards I would tell them to give that target a 1/2 inch box at the muzzle. At 40 yards, the "box" would be 1 " at the muzzle. At 60 yards it would be a 2" box at the muzzle. In other words, I give them a specific sight picture for them to crush that target.

BTW Here's a picture of me and Mr. Digweed doing a clinic at the Dallas Gun Club. He told me he practiced on a skeet field, used sustained lead on occasion and I promise you he absolutely does know how much lead he needs to give a target. That's why he's so good.

 

[bordergun]

Ben I agree. Please see the post above. All the top shooters use ALL the methods on SC, of course they do. If a target beats them, they must use another method to adjust. But to adjust, they must know the lead. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Just as your advice never go on a skeet field is ridiculous. The top SC shooter in the World doesn't agree with you on that and his advice is good enough for me. So, rather than get involved in the inevitable confrontation, I would think this thread is now well and truly down the pan.

 

[Freddypip]

You opened this thread by asking the reasons we miss targets. Those that have replied have provided a (big) list of their reasons.

You have steered the conversation in the direction of lead - the failure to read it - yet you miss some 15% for 'other reasons'.

What are those 'other reasons'.

Given your experience we can then discuss those reasons and learn from them. That would be helpful for me and I expect others. This is a joke by the way - but just how many sausages do I need to eat before it has an effect ??

I would stress that if you are 85 as a super vet you are shooting sporting well. But as a coach the misses should still be easy to describe or categorize.

I have already told you where I expect this is going - I accept you do not misread the lead - I just want to know why you miss the others ? I expect when you look into it, the reasons are those which have an impact on the lead - you think you are putting the same lead on but the method is messed up so it's a miss.

I would also stress I understand how your unit system system deals with the variables of lead - I don't need the measurements as I can still remember enough of the pure & applied math I did at A level - nor does reference to famous people do anything for me as there's often one to prove every option. I have read your book. I (and I believe others) do not need to be told about it again and really and reference to your books should remain in the 'for sale' section of the forum.

 

[vmax1010]

To get back on track the main reason I miss is A, i stop the gun subconsciously
B, I lift my head looking for the clay subconsciously due to bad technique and lack of coaching, my shooting is social with friends at local shoots and I'm quite happy with that

 

[Salopian]

Please explain to me how a tight choke lengthens the shot string?
Is it like traffic going through restriction on the Motorway ?

 

[FESkent]

Please explain to me how a tight choke lengthens the shot string?
Is it like traffic going through restriction on the Motorway ?

it probably does not, but George Digweed commented apparently that it does, but given the mind game in shooting if it works for George to think that I for one would not criticise him he would out shoot me any day of the week and probably with one hand tied behind his back

 

[bordergun]

FESkent Like I said many moons ago, perhaps some top guys don't actually do what they say they do, or think they do? But then, before he went into SC, wasn't George for many years a skeet champion? And doesn't he also tell people he practices on a skeet field? But some "top" coaches say that's the very worst thing a SC shooter should do?

And because of the "new machines" the game has "changed"? Strange, because we installed dozens of them last year and the target presentations "seemed" to come out of them in exactly the same way as they did 50 years ago. Silly me! Ahhhhh, mind games? Yes....................

 

[Freddypip]

Hi Salopian.

Watch this on You Tube -

Go to 30 minutes and watch until the end of the equations - it's ducks but the point is there - the effect of the shot string is marginal.

It's one of 6 videos where an American uses a slow mo camera to film the shot string. I haven't watched them all - I just went to the conclusion !!!

 

[bordergun]

Freddypip. Here you go.

1. The sun was in my eyes.
2. I blinked.
3. I glanced at a supermodel who was shooting on the next station.
4. The wind caught a 60 yard crosser just as I pulled the trigger.
5. The wind caught a 60 yard springing teal just as I pulled the trigger.
6. The rabbit bounced just as I pulled the trigger.
7. Sweat got in my eyes.
8. It was hot and by this time the supermodel was wearing a skimpy bikini.
9. I was thinking about some of the shooters on here that ask stupid questions.
10. I was using sustained lead when everyone knows the "new" methods are swing through and pull away.
11. My stance was wrong because I was looking at the supermodel in the bikini who was getting closer.
12. One of the shells I bought had a faulty primer.
13. I was thinking about shooters that spend huge amounts on lessons and after several still can't hit a cow in the a$$ with a banjo.
14. I was thinking about what Bavarian said about "Then you will be able to read the target" on post #11 of the "How to get Better." thread.
15. I was thinking why would all this be relevant to someone like you that didn't even bother to answer MY question on post #61.

There you go Freddypip. Happy now?

 

[bordergun]

Ben. I hope you are thriving and selling lots of eye dominance rails. As you know, Worldwide, 99.99% of skeet shooters use maintained lead. That isn't just my opinion, it was the chosen method of all the skeet champions that I talked to when I was employed at the best skeet Club in the US for seven years and also by talking to all the ISSF skeet shooters over a four year period.

Please would you be good enough to explain why "maintained should be the last thing you learn due to it's so many down sides."

Thank you.

 

[bordergun]

Ben. Another question when you have time? Why have the "new machines" changed the game?

Thank you.

 

[bordergun]

And while I was writing the reply I received an e mail from the NSSA-NSCA written by Paul Giambrone 111 one of THE best in the World and a check list plan of action for a successful shot:-
1. Visualize your sight picture.
2. Once you call for your target match gun speed with target speed to build in maintained lead.

And before you come back with ahha! That's skeet, I shoot SC it's different. Moving targets are moving targets, doesn't matter if it is a skeet, trap, SC or a driven pheasant. If you don't know the lead, you will miss. Strange that some coaches avoid mentioning it, isn't it?

 

[Freddypip]

Peter.

I don't blame you at all for the joke. Just asking for a serious reply. I don't know your answers and given you started this thread it's reasonable to ask you to provide them to avoid any ambiguity. Each person is different and you have coached so you may also have some additional, useful, input into the reason you miss.

Most of the answers already mentioned here are to do with technique, method & application. Very few, if any, are concerned with lead in isolation. That's what I'm interested in - do yours relate specifically to lead in some way. Yes, I might suspect they do not, or incorrect lead is outcome of some other issue, but please tell me.

If your misses are for the same reason then perhaps you will accept that there are many other factors at play which need to be sorted before lead can be identified as the the dominant cause of a miss. If that is the case your self promotion is best kept to the 'for sale' section etc. and your threads & replies should avoid going down that line.

I did not say I do not discuss lead with my coach. Please read my post again. I said it's the last thing we talk about - there is no point until everything else is right and often when it is, the lead is correctly applied - THE LEAD IS CORRECTLY ASSESSED BECAUSE EVERYTHING ELSE IS RIGHT. On the odd occasion it's wrong an adjustment is made. It's rarely the dominant reason I miss and your numbers suggest the same for you given you never misread a clay.

I have been shooting competitions long enough to know that maintained lead has its place but it is not the solution. Long enough to be backtracking from using it as much as I have.

You have asked Ben for the downside of maintained lead. As coach I assume you know the answer he will give. For me it is the disjoint between gun barrels & clay - maintained lead must account for changes in clay line & speed which pull away manages by the barrels tracking the clay line until the pull away is executed. They are also certain clays you cannot shoot maintained - there is simply not enough time - so swing to or swing through are required. The lead pictures you have with maintained lead are of no use then. That's my view however but with your experience you can probably explain the problems with maintained lead better than I can.

Never met Paul Giambrone so I've no idea what he thinks. You shoot trap (DTL) maintained lead ?????

I expect the other forum members are tired of reading my replies. I will ask one last time - please explain the reasons you miss.

Edited for minor grammar mistake !!!

 

[bordergun]

Dave 3 I welcome people disagreeing with me. It encourages meaningful discussion and I believe that what this forum was intended for. What I object to is people disagreeing but their reasons for disagreeing don't hold water. Please remember, there's no such thing as a dumb question, only a dumb answer.

 

[bordergun]

Freddypip. Yet according to what all the ISSF coaches say, lead is one of the very first things you need to consider. Perhaps, as both Chris Craddock or Roger Silcox would have probably advised, "Have you ever thought of taking up golf?"

 

[Westward]

You don't like people disagreeing with you do you? To sum this thread up:
You made a post asking a question, you didn't get the answers you wanted and you seem unable to see any point of view other than your own.
When you get challenged you throw your toys out of the pram. I was kind of hoping this behaviour was exclusive to golf forums.

And that's exactly why he's been banned on other forums. Feeding trolls is never good idea so I suggest that ignoring him is the best policy.