Reasons for missing

[bordergun]

Daz W You obviously know your stuff. As you correctly say, establishing lead at a distance is always difficult for all shooters...... and especially NOOBs.

The phenomenon of perspective means our ability to judge the correct lead...... especially at longer ranges. In other words, if we take a 50-60 yard crossing shot as an example requiring a big lead and tell a new or intermediate shooter to give it the 12-14 feet it needs, he won't have a clue what you are talking about. Teach him the Unit Lead methodology, show him what a unit of lead looks like and tell him to give it 5-6 units at the muzzle and he will be right in the middle of it. Without looking AT the muzzle of course.

Read everything, crossers, droppers, chandels, rabbits a etc. on a SC course in a few hours, not years. As I say I am in Wyoming at the moment I will be happy to explain more when I am back in the office on 7th July.

 

[bordergun]

Ben. You repeatedly tell us that you are the best coach in the World. I'm usless and peddle lies, Chris Batha can't get a shooter to the top, Gil Ash is useless, Mike Yardley is a dork etc. What's wrong? Are you worried that shooters buying a book for 8 GBP might learn a lot rather than take lessons from you?

 

[Daz W]

Daz W You obviously know your stuff. As you correctly say, establishing lead at a distance is always difficult for all shooters...... and especially NOOBs.

The phenomenon of perspective means our ability to judge the correct lead...... especially at longer ranges. In other words, if we take a 50-60 yard crossing shot as an example requiring a big lead and tell a new or intermediate shooter to give it the 12-14 feet it needs, he won't have a clue what you are talking about. Teach him the Unit Lead methodology, show him what a unit of lead looks like and tell him to give it 5-6 units at the muzzle and he will be right in the middle of it. Without looking AT the muzzle of course.

Read everything, crossers, droppers, chandels, rabbits a etc. on a SC course in a few hours, not years. As I say I am in Wyoming at the moment I will be happy to explain more when I am back in the office on 7th July.

I never said that at all, quite the opposite in fact. If you ask a newbie to measure x amount of lead at the muzzle, then I'll guarantee they end up focusing on the muzzle when applying the lead. Hell, the amount of targets I missed when I first started because I was subconciously checking the lead at muzzle was unreal. Stopped the gun every time. That's why I'll ask a student to count the bits. Keeps the focus where it needs to be.

Also I disagree with your method of teaching maintained lead with the off eye closed. Good luck with that when shooting driven, teal, going away from an elevated position. Your gun is always going to blocking the clay, and due to having an eye closed, you'll not even be able to pick it up coming up from under the gun with the off eye.

Maintained may give you perceived lead that equates to actual lead. But it doesn't give you line, nor is it feasible on all targets. So theoretically, lead wise only , it could be used as the basis on which lead is taught. But it's not, as the downsides of ML outweigh the upsides. No different to modern languages being based on Latin, but I wasn't taught that before English. Same goes for ML.

 

[Freddypip]

Daz - I agree with everything you say including the misinterpretation of your post.

PeeJay – Excellent post for giving your reasons and these will need to be addressed and that can only really be done by a coach and then practice and perhaps some (if you are desperate) comment here !!!. Whilst, as you say, maintained does appear to provide a mathematical understanding of where to put the shot (to complicate matters) its doesn’t easily account for a number of others factors - for example clay's slowing down. Some clay presentations also slow the clay down from the shooters perspective by turning back against their flight line – course setters use this. With maintained the lead there then appears to be a collapsing lead and its very hard to judge this when you are already ahead of the clay – and seem to be moving the barrels towards the clay. So if you are mathematician any real variations in clay speed result in a need for a bit calculus which clearly has to be rubbish !!!

Dave3 – I wrote along rambling post above regarding books I have read. I was trying to politely point out that maintained maybe seen as an American option with the (UK) CPSA using (effectively) pull away. That might explain (in a very small part) the OPs preference but, as per your experience, decent coaches in the UK will not base a system around maintained.

Having had admin in to delete some posts, perhaps it's time to look at some of the reasons without any discussion of lead whatsoever ?

 

[k80ben]

Ben. You repeatedly tell us that you are the best coach in the World. I'm usless and peddle lies, Chris Batha can't get a shooter to the top, Gil Ash is useless, Mike Yardley is a dork etc. What's wrong? Are you worried that shooters buying a book for 8 GBP might learn a lot rather than take lessons from you?

No no fear it’s just factual I in fact support and with with many other coaches. As a test I brought up your name with the top 8 USA shooters yesterday 3 never heard of you and 5 said look he tried hard and he’s a nice old man just very limited in his knowledge or variations of such.

As I said there is a place for all

 

[PeeJay]

Daz - I agree with everything you say including the misinterpretation of your post.

PeeJay – Excellent post for giving your reasons and these will need to be addressed and that can only really be done by a coach and then practice and perhaps some (if you are desperate) comment here !!!. Whilst, as you say, maintained does appear to provide a mathematical understanding of where to put the shot (to complicate matters) its doesn’t easily account for a number of others factors - for example clay's slowing down. Some clay presentations also slow the clay down from the shooters perspective by turning back against their flight line – course setters use this. With maintained the lead there then appears to be a collapsing lead and its very hard to judge this when you are already ahead of the clay – and seem to be moving the barrels towards the clay. So if you are mathematician any real variations in clay speed result in a need for a bit calculus which clearly has to be rubbish !!!

Dave3 – I wrote along rambling post above regarding books I have read. I was trying to politely point out that maintained maybe seen as an American option with the (UK) CPSA using (effectively) pull away. That might explain (in a very small part) the OPs preference but, as per your experience, decent coaches in the UK will not base a system around maintained.

Having had admin in to delete some posts, perhaps it's time to look at some of the reasons without any discussion of lead whatsoever ?

I’m definitely working on all of them; I try to make sure I have a process I follow for each shot and keep the concentration up.

Here’s a quick question which may or may not be relevant to this discussion. I’m enjoying looking at YouTube videos (that Ed Solomons seems a good chap) but I’ve noticed that when they are doing single clays, they load one cartridge at a time. They shoot the single clay. Then reload another. Repeat. Whereas I put 2 in then do two single shots on two separate clays. Is there are reason as I’ve seen lots of people do the single load?

 

[Freddypip]

I have added a few points here as I'm not entirely sure I understand whether you are shooting two of the same clay or different ones.

If you are shooting CPSA comps, its 100 birds normally in pairs with (generally) one shot per clay. As such, if you are practicing a single clay then use a single cartridge. There is a school of thought that if you load both barrels and then shoot a single clay you might not focus on the best kill point but shoot one too early and one too late. E.g. If the Ed Solomons video was talking about kill points he might have been focusing on using a single shot.

There is also an argument that a consistent pre-shot routine - including loading the gun etc - helps build repeatability. Treat the whole thing as part of the shot. I often open the gun after a no bird just to reset and my daughter is finding that helpful for her as well. There is also a (good) argument about safety - get into the habit of unloading the gun at the end of the routine. I don't have a semi-auto but the times I've seen issues is where the gun is overloaded for the targets leaving one in . . . . An over and under is the same - you shoot one and then forget you have it loaded for two, though obviously it's opened before you leave the cage.

In terms of pairs, as above, you shoot those in comps however when learning its better to stick to singles initially as with pairs there is a lot more going on. Better to get the single right and then worry about transition hold points etc.

In some cases you might have two shots at a single bird and then need to reload one anyway for the next target if you hit it with the first cartridge. So no time saved.

In short generally load only what you need for the clays expected when you say 'pull'.

All of the above (with the clear exception of the safety issue) is a perfect world though. You are there to have fun at your own pace. I spent a lot of time - and I mean a lot - in a group early on shooting one, then the other (load), then a simo pair (load), then a simo pair the other way around. Not the best way to learn but I had loads of fun and a laugh and I wouldn't have changed any of that.

 

[PeeJay]

I have added a few points here as I'm not entirely sure I understand whether you are shooting two of the same clay or different ones.

If you are shooting CPSA comps, its 100 birds normally in pairs with (generally) one shot per clay. As such, if you are practicing a single clay then use a single cartridge. There is a school of thought that if you load both barrels and then shoot a single clay you might not focus on the best kill point but shoot one too early and one too late. E.g. If the Ed Solomons video was talking about kill points he might have been focusing on using a single shot.

There is also an argument that a consistent pre-shot routine - including loading the gun etc - helps build repeatability. Treat the whole thing as part of the shot. I often open the gun after a no bird just to reset and my daughter is finding that helpful for her as well. There is also a (good) argument about safety - get into the habit of unloading the gun at the end of the routine. I don't have a semi-auto but the times I've seen issues is where the gun is overloaded for the targets leaving one in . . . . An over and under is the same - you shoot one and then forget you have it loaded for two, though obviously it's opened before you leave the cage.

In terms of pairs, as above, you shoot those in comps however when learning its better to stick to singles initially as with pairs there is a lot more going on. Better to get the single right and then worry about transition hold points etc.

In some cases you might have two shots at a single bird and then need to reload one anyway for the next target if you hit it with the first cartridge. So no time saved.

In short generally load only what you need for the clays expected when you say 'pull'.

All of the above (with the clear exception of the safety issue) is a perfect world though. You are there to have fun at your own pace. I spent a lot of time - and I mean a lot - in a group early on shooting one, then the other (load), then a simo pair (load), then a simo pair the other way around. Not the best way to learn but I had loads of fun and a laugh and I wouldn't have changed any of that.

Great information that, as every day is a school day at the moment.

When I go shooting I/we are focusing on single clays. Our thoughts are that if we get the basics right, that will help when moving to pairs.

So I might go on a trap with say a crosser, and I will shoot it singly 8 or 10 times. Single clays each time. So I load two cartridges each time, then pull and fire, reset position, pull and fire. When we’ve done enough there we move to a different trap (say a rising teal, or a rabbit) and do about 10 of them. Singly, 1 at a time, but loading two cartridges.

It was only when I started watching you tube videos that they all seemed to load a single cartridge each time, even if they then did 10 clays all the same, one after another. So if I did 10 rabbits I loaded 5 times, if they do 10 rabbits they load 10 times. But they all seem to do it.

I hadn’t thought about the process side of things though, with the loading beng part of it, thats very interesting.

 

[bordergun]

Daz W I apologize. I though you understood that regardless of if we see lead in feet at the target, or some increment at the muzzle that correlates accurately into feet at the target (ie. "Units") the muzzle is always used in both cases in your peripheral vision as a visual reference. Please notice also that I said in my post: "Without looking AT the muzzle" Did you miss that part? That's why learning the process of applying lead is much easier. Hours instead of years.

 

[bordergun]

Ben. I must admit I'm baffled. Some of the shooters may not know me, I understand, as you say, I'm an old guy. But there is one current World Champion that should. As for coaches, I know them all, Bobby Fowler, Anthony Materese, Dan Carlisle, Todd Bender, John Shima, Scott Robertson etc. in fact for many years I had my own key to get into Scotts place, Elmfork.

I guess you could always call Scott to ask him how many lessons I did there? But the surprising thing was one of the answers that one of the top coaches gave me. He burst out laughing when I mentioned you. I wonder why?

And I am in Colorado at the moment driving to Wyoming. But when I get the chance I will put some information on here that proves that some top coaches now advise seeing lead at the muzzle....... exactly like I do. Strange that they would fo that if it doesn't work, isn't it?

 

[Martinj]

Peejay, they are doing it for demonstration purposes, when you are in a competition you will load both barrels. if you are practising singles you can load both barrels if you like as long as your gun is unloaded before you turn and leave the stand.

 

[bordergun]

Here you go Ben.

Two e mails today, one from a 4H teams coach "By using your Unit Lead system the team won everything there was to win and walked off with seven medals! Thank you Sir!

The other one from a guy in Larnaca, Cyprus:- "I have shot for several years but until I read your book I had no idea how much lead to give the targets. I wish I had found it sooner. Thank you most sincerely.

 

[FESkent]

please let’s get back on topic.

Ben, Peter just accept different techniques are available and different coaches will teach different ways, and all are individuals with different abilities.

I was pleased with how I shot yesterday, but struggled with a 25yard very slow midi crosser that was relatively low and curving quickly to the ground, in blue sky for very little time, then merged with the background. Think I was over the top. Those who shot it best were much quicker than me and broke it whilst in the blue sky. Must be my age or eye sight

 

[PeeJay]

Peejay, they are doing it for demonstration purposes, when you are in a competition you will load both barrels. if you are practising singles you can load both barrels if you like as long as your gun is unloaded before you turn and leave the stand.

Thank you. I’ll carry on doing it, just makes it a bit easier for me.

Definitely unloaded and broken before leaving the stand. I make a point that if I turn for any reason to speak to someone, I break the gun first.

 

[bordergun]

FESkent I agree entirely. But I do get frustrated when some on here accuse me of peddling lies and mis-information, that why I feel the need to respond.

IMO it's uneccessary, immature, displays disturbing behaviour and it doesn't do anyone any good. Post the truth. The World and these public Internet forums would be a better place for everyone.

 

[DaveJH]

Great information that, as every day is a school day at the moment.

When I go shooting I/we are focusing on single clays. Our thoughts are that if we get the basics right, that will help when moving to pairs.

So I might go on a trap with say a crosser, and I will shoot it singly 8 or 10 times. Single clays each time. So I load two cartridges each time, then pull and fire, reset position, pull and fire. When we’ve done enough there we move to a different trap (say a rising teal, or a rabbit) and do about 10 of them. Singly, 1 at a time, but loading two cartridges.

It was only when I started watching you tube videos that they all seemed to load a single cartridge each time, even if they then did 10 clays all the same, one after another. So if I did 10 rabbits I loaded 5 times, if they do 10 rabbits they load 10 times. But they all seem to do it.

I hadn’t thought about the process side of things though, with the loading beng part of it, thats very interesting.

Don't forget that they (and you) will likely have different chokes in the top and bottom barrels, so potentially a preference for one in addition to the reasons of the routine of breaking/loading. Doing it your way does spread the firing pin wear and tear though!

 

[bordergun]

Daz W Re. looking at the end of the gun. Here is page 14 of Reading Targets, where I say do not do that. The gun must remain in your peripheral vision, exactly as it would if you see lead out there at the target in feet.

I am traveling today but if you (or anyone else) has any questions I will be more than happy to answer them when I have time. Wyoming here I come!

 

[Yorkshire Clay Shooting]

To get back on track the main reason I miss is A, i stop the gun subconsciously
B, I lift my head looking for the clay subconsciously due to bad technique and lack of coaching, my shooting is social with friends at local shoots and I'm quite happy with that

Guilty of both of these

 

[Luke_(NL)]

Singly, 1 at a time, but loading two cartridges.

It was only when I started watching you tube videos that they all seemed to load a single cartridge each time, even if they then did 10 clays all the same, one after another. So if I did 10 rabbits I loaded 5 times, if they do 10 rabbits they load 10 times. But they all seem to do it.

I hadn’t thought about the process side of things though, with the loading beng part of it, thats very interesting.

Not sure as to who does what and why on Youtube, but speaking for myself I definitely follow a routine for each stand and each shot. When shooting singles where only one shot is allowed in competition, I would usually practice those with one barrel as well - approaching everything as you would as though the score mattered. Now that my "pre-shot-routine" is more developed, I occasionally cheat and shoot singles in rapid succession, but now that I think about it that can lead to not following your usual form.

Think of it as golf: For every shot a player lines up - checks where he wants to get the ball to, adjusts alignment, finds proper distance to the ball, makes a dry swing (or two) and then executes the shot. If you don't follow the same routine every time, how can the outcome become consistent?

 

[PeeJay]

Not sure as to who does what and why on Youtube, but speaking for myself I definitely follow a routine for each stand and each shot. When shooting singles where only one shot is allowed in competition, I would usually practice those with one barrel as well - approaching everything as you would as though the score mattered. Now that my "pre-shot-routine" is more developed, I occasionally cheat and shoot singles in rapid succession, but now that I think about it that can lead to not following your usual form.

Think of it as golf: For every shot a player lines up - checks where he wants to get the ball to, adjusts alignment, finds proper distance to the ball, makes a dry swing (or two) and then executes the shot. If you don't follow the same routine every time, how can the outcome become consistent?

That does all make sense, and I can see how having that consistent routine can affect “why you miss”.

By the way, I never take two shots on 1 clay if I miss it on the first shot. Loading two together is purely to save me loading 2 singly.