How much do you pay for 100ESP comp?

[Mr Potter]

Some valid points there Andy - but allow me to pick just one:

Affordability is an objective issue - it can be answered with a simple, black-n-white, yes or no. You either have the funds, or you don't (and that's not a value judgment on the person answering the question, merely simple mathematics).

Value for money is a completely subjective issue and open to the interpretation of the individual paying the piper.

By way of hypothetical example to illustrate both points: "I'm going to sell you a fully-spec'd, top-of-the-range Range Rover, only got 300 miles on the clock from factory... for £7K"

Is it perceived value for money? I suspect most people would say 'yes'. Subjective.

Affordability: can [the hypothetical person we're asking] afford it...? That's where simple budget and mathematics comes into play. Objective.

Lets get rid of the RR bollocks, I've been on Autotrader for hours and I can't find that one for £7k. Lets talk about shooting grounds

Lets have a hypothetical situation where Joe Bloggs lives equidistant from Shooting Ground "A" and Shooting Ground "B". 

Shooting Ground "A" has a good big clubhouse, decent catering and is holding a registered 100 ESP shoot over 12 stands using  non CPSA qualified refs (should be referred to as markers).  Shooting Ground "B" has a good big clubhouse, decent catering and is also holding a 100 bird ESP shoot but over 14 stands and also using unqualified markers.

The  subjective bit is things like which is the better clubhouse, whose bacon barms taste best, which has the better loos, all those could be measured objectively but us mortals don't do that, we have different tastes (I've even heard some soft prick criticizing one clubhouse as too f*****g posh!!)

The quality of targets at each ground is purely subjective, it's extremely rare to find every shooter in agreement usually those that scored well think they are great whilst those shooting below par think they were a bag of sh*t.  Very rarely do the vast majority agree and if they do it's usually at a ground were they think the targets were poor.  If I haven't shot well (most of the time) and I'm asked about the quality of targets I'll usually preface my answer with "It's hard to be objective when you've shot badly..."   With hindsight, on those rare occasions when I've shot above par, I should say "It's hard to be objective when I've scored well..."

Back to the two shoots, the independent observer declare both sets of targets were good (whatever "good" means?).  The prices, now we can't see the costs behind each shoot, one might have much higher overheads than the other for various reasons but that matters not a jot when at SG "A" they are charging £31 for a non competition entry and SG "B" £25.  Now this is the bit, doesn't matter if you are a captain of industry or a refuse disposal operative SG "A" is offering less value for money that SG "B"  Assuming you can afford £31, as an individual, you may well prefer SG "A" for a host of reasons, the girl behind the counter might have bigger tits, they don't have a rabbit there and I hate rabbits, plenty of teal and I can hit teal, hard paths to all the stands so I don't have to put my wellies on and so on and so forth.  The benchmark is £25 anything more and we're being ripped off, but if there is no alternative and because we can afford it we dig deeper into our pockets.

Mr Potter

 

[wylye]

Thirty quid a thousand for clays?!!!! You know nothing, nothing at all. If you are basing your argument on that then it is b******s!

 

[Nicky T]

In my opinion, the benchmark isn't £25, instead that is just the cheapest in the locality. We're all partaking in a luxury sport here, where we make a decision each and every week where we want to shoot, how fast (pr uneconomically) we want to drive there, who we want to shoot with, what cartridges we want to shoot through our guns and what guns we want to shoot. When all is said and done i bet there's not a lot of difference between what it costs us each per shoot on average. The bigger difference is how much enjoyment we get from shooting throughout the year

 

[Lock Stock & Barrel]

In my opinion, the benchmark isn't £25, instead that is just the cheapest in the locality. We're all partaking in a luxury sport here, where we make a decision each and every week where we want to shoot, how fast (pr uneconomically) we want to drive there, who we want to shoot with, what cartridges we want to shoot through our guns and what guns we want to shoot. When all is said and done i bet there's not a lot of difference between what it costs us each per shoot on average. The bigger difference is how much enjoyment we get from shooting throughout the year

I have to say. in reality, this is nearer the mark than what we've been subjected to previously.

 

[RobertBeard]

Pricing is a sophisticated evolution for a service based business.  Grounds ultimately charge what their customers will pay for what is on offer.  If the price is too high for the perceived value the shooters won't come back.  If the ground is great , the clays great, the food outstanding etc then that ground will find that it can charge more.  In fact they might put the price up a bit if they get too many people to deter a few.

Its not all about how much the clays cost, the cost of labour, rent etc.  You have to turn the ingredients into an excellent product to be able to sell it at a good price. 

Where you talk about being ripped off its because in your view the price is too high but the ground owner may be perfectly happy with the number of shooters that come through the door.

Another owner might have a "pil 'em high, sell 'em cheap" philosophy to get as many through the door as possible because he might have an extra large clubhouse and can sell more food.

The arguments are just being seen from the shooters view not the ground owners and have been too simplistic.

Bit of an accountants view there I'm afraid!

Put yourself in their shoes and think about what you would do.

 

[Hamster]

There was a banner in a clothes shop that read: before criticising a man walk a mile in his shoes, then you'll be a long way away and have his shoes.

 

[Jonny English]

My local ground does 100 clays for £20, but you have to trap yourself, no cafe, no toilets, muddy tracks, not cpsa reg etc.

But the targets are top quality, staff are incredibly helpful and friendly, its a very good place to practise. There are some good driven stands, some 1 man flushes, a very good selection of targets. Some of the targets you can alter from the remote to make driven into crossers etc.

Its not a very professional ground, but excellant fun and value for money.

 

[Emmsy]

show me a poor ground owner

they charge whatever they think they can get away with. simples

and my guess on clay cost would be around £60 a thousand

 

[webber]

Lets get rid of the RR bollocks, I've been on Autotrader for hours and I can't find that one for £7k. Lets talk about shooting grounds

Lets have a hypothetical situation where Joe Bloggs lives equidistant from Shooting Ground "A" and Shooting Ground "B". 

Shooting Ground "A" has a good big clubhouse, decent catering and is holding a registered 100 ESP shoot over 12 stands using  non CPSA qualified refs (should be referred to as markers).  Shooting Ground "B" has a good big clubhouse, decent catering and is also holding a 100 bird ESP shoot but over 14 stands and also using unqualified markers.

The  subjective bit is things like which is the better clubhouse, whose bacon barms taste best, which has the better loos, all those could be measured objectively but us mortals don't do that, we have different tastes (I've even heard some soft prick criticizing one clubhouse as too f*****g posh!!)

The quality of targets at each ground is purely subjective, it's extremely rare to find every shooter in agreement usually those that scored well think they are great whilst those shooting below par think they were a bag of sh*t.  Very rarely do the vast majority agree and if they do it's usually at a ground were they think the targets were poor.  If I haven't shot well (most of the time) and I'm asked about the quality of targets I'll usually preface my answer with "It's hard to be objective when you've shot badly..."   With hindsight, on those rare occasions when I've shot above par, I should say "It's hard to be objective when I've scored well..."

Back to the two shoots, the independent observer declare both sets of targets were good (whatever "good" means?).  The prices, now we can't see the costs behind each shoot, one might have much higher overheads than the other for various reasons but that matters not a jot when at SG "A" they are charging £31 for a non competition entry and SG "B" £25.  Now this is the bit, doesn't matter if you are a captain of industry or a refuse disposal operative SG "A" is offering less value for money that SG "B"  Assuming you can afford £31, as an individual, you may well prefer SG "A" for a host of reasons, the girl behind the counter might have bigger tits, they don't have a rabbit there and I hate rabbits, plenty of teal and I can hit teal, hard paths to all the stands so I don't have to put my wellies on and so on and so forth.  The benchmark is £25 anything more and we're being ripped off, but if there is no alternative and because we can afford it we dig deeper into our pockets.

Mr Potter

I'm sorry Andy, but you need to expand on your £25 benchmark.

With respect, there is no benchmark, or rip off from where I'm sat.

You stated that it cost no more to put on a good shoot; I pointed out that clearly it did; you then went on to waffle about all sorts, all valid points, but not appropriate to the point that I was replying to.

I shoot at a small club, non members pay £10 for 60 birds, its all electric traps, we have no catering or toilets, and we pick up at the end of a testing enjoyable shoot. open 2 days / month.

Lupton charge £18 for 100 birds.  The shed, toilet and catering are basic but functional, and they have the best steak pies I've ever had.  Generally you need wellies, and oxygen by the time you've climbed the hill. Open 2 days / week.

Kelbrook charge £26 for 100 birds.  The toilets are adequate, the canteen semi derelict, but contains an excellent caterer at weekends, decent paths, wellies not generally required.  Decent targets to test all abilities. Open 6 days / week

Worsley Charge £30 for 100 birds.  Functional toilets, decent catering; several learner stands to avoid time wasting for experienced shooters; goodness knows how many stands to shoot. Open 3 days / week.

I'm inexperienced with regards to Catton; I've only shot there once, the club house is impressive; I'll let you complete the data if you wish.

If we do have to have a bench mark and I do mean IF.  Then surly we should be looking towards a GOLD standard as a bench mark, and would venture to suggest grounds such as Hodnet.

You missed my point that a "celebrity" course setter needs to be paid.  I've no idea what such a fee would be, but it must put a quid or two onto each competition card shot.

It seems to me that grounds are dammed if they do nothing about improving things, and then dammed when they do!

Quality targets, facilities, staff and referees (please don't refer to me as a marker) all cost money to differing degrees subject to the ground.  I therefore repeat that it is nieve in the extreme to suggest that because ground A can chuck a clay for 20 pence or so; any ground that charges any more than this is ripping shooters off.  Its simply not possible to make a fair comparison, so we are simply left with a price comparison.  

We all know that shooters vote with their wallet and right foot.  I'm sure that's what they'l do.

I'm aware that CPSA would like more grounds to host registered shoots.  Is there any wonder that there a few takers.

webber

 

[Will Hewland]

I can't believe how long this thread has rumbled on.

The facts to remember are that ground owners have to make a profit if you want them to carry on. If they have any business sense, they will charge the price that makes them most profit. Usually that is the price that most shooters want to pay for the product received; otherwise the entries are too low and NO price will make the business work. (One ground has recently abandoned ESP shoots after the final nail in the coffin was to raise the price too high to try and make a profit. Opposite effect achieved). One thing is for sure, you need a decent footfall to make this work.

A few shooters assume that they are owed dirt cheap shooting. Some grounds feel they can charge very high prices. It is of course the middle ground, balanced with decent facilities and targets that attract the masses. Market forces dictate the trend, end of story.

 

[Emmsy]

call me stupid but i can never understand why the price keeps creeping up in order to make extra money at shoots. prices seem to have creeped up and numbers at shoots gone down a bit. there is obviously a point where the ground starts making money after the fixed outgoings have been made (ie 12 scorers, HG prize, ground rent, etc)

that might be 40, 50, 60, 70 shooters or whatever to break even. After that every entry is only really costing a few quid on clays.

Why charge 100 people an extra £2 each to make £200 when getting 10 extra punters thru the door makes you a lot more.

Surely they should be trying to make it more attractive and get more customers coming than upping the cost every 5 mins.

Has anyone actually dropped the entry price by £5 and seen what effect that has on people turning up?  

 

[Will Hewland]

call me stupid but i can never understand why the price keeps creeping up in order to make extra money at shoots. prices seem to have creeped up and numbers at shoots gone down a bit. there is obviously a point where the ground starts making money after the fixed outgoings have been made (ie 12 scorers, HG prize, ground rent, etc)

that might be 40, 50, 60, 70 shooters or whatever to break even. After that every entry is only really costing a few quid on clays.

Why charge 100 people an extra £2 each to make £200 when getting 10 extra punters thru the door makes you a lot more.

Surely they should be trying to make it more attractive and get more customers coming than upping the cost every 5 mins.

Has anyone actually dropped the entry price by £5 and seen what effect that has on people turning up?  

Kinda what I was saying Emmsy. There was one ground that did. Then they tried adding 20 birds FOC. Didn't work as their were some other elements that were causing them low entries. Back to normal there now price wise.

 

[Lock Stock & Barrel]

Lets get rid of the RR bollocks, I've been on Autotrader for hours and I can't find that one for £7k. Lets talk about shooting grounds

Lets have a hypothetical situation where Joe Bloggs lives equidistant from Shooting Ground "A" and Shooting Ground "B". 

Shooting Ground "A" has a good big clubhouse, decent catering and is holding a registered 100 ESP shoot over 12 stands using  non CPSA qualified refs (should be referred to as markers).  Shooting Ground "B" has a good big clubhouse, decent catering and is also holding a 100 bird ESP shoot but over 14 stands and also using unqualified markers.

The  subjective bit is things like which is the better clubhouse, whose bacon barms taste best, which has the better loos, all those could be measured objectively but us mortals don't do that, we have different tastes (I've even heard some soft prick criticizing one clubhouse as too f*****g posh!!)

The quality of targets at each ground is purely subjective, it's extremely rare to find every shooter in agreement usually those that scored well think they are great whilst those shooting below par think they were a bag of sh*t.  Very rarely do the vast majority agree and if they do it's usually at a ground were they think the targets were poor.  If I haven't shot well (most of the time) and I'm asked about the quality of targets I'll usually preface my answer with "It's hard to be objective when you've shot badly..."   With hindsight, on those rare occasions when I've shot above par, I should say "It's hard to be objective when I've scored well..."

Back to the two shoots, the independent observer declare both sets of targets were good (whatever "good" means?).  The prices, now we can't see the costs behind each shoot, one might have much higher overheads than the other for various reasons but that matters not a jot when at SG "A" they are charging £31 for a non competition entry and SG "B" £25.  Now this is the bit, doesn't matter if you are a captain of industry or a refuse disposal operative SG "A" is offering less value for money that SG "B"  Assuming you can afford £31, as an individual, you may well prefer SG "A" for a host of reasons, the girl behind the counter might have bigger tits, they don't have a rabbit there and I hate rabbits, plenty of teal and I can hit teal, hard paths to all the stands so I don't have to put my wellies on and so on and so forth.  The benchmark is £25 anything more and we're being ripped off, but if there is no alternative and because we can afford it we dig deeper into our pockets.

Mr Potter

Sorry mate, but with sincere respect, and even after you saying "This shouldn't become a Catton v Worsley issue", all I see here is you taking any opportunity, on multiple forums, to slag off a ground where you're pissed off with the entry fee. Many people, including one former ground manager at Worsley, have tried to explain to you the reasons why that ground charges what it does (i.e. Worsley don't own their ground and are subject to the vagaries of land rent, road maintenance [as a condition of usage], diesel for their generator as it's not on the grid etc, whereas Catton Hall owns its ground and has umpteen other activities able to subsidise its shooting etc). And frankly, if Catton changed its birds more frequently (and not, in my experience, two visits three months apart and them still being the same), I'd go there more often.

And as for "Worsely's 12 stands with 5 pair card wreckers" - why on earth would/should that matter to a shooter? You're asked to do nothing more than break as many of the 100 clays presented to you - whether that's in 3, 4 or 5 pairs. Sorry, but I really cannot see the beef with 5 pairs, in fact, it looks a little churlish.

I think we get the impression that you prefer Catton Hall. Good. Enjoy your shooting there. As will I, the next time I go there.

 

[Lock Stock & Barrel]

I can't believe how long this thread has rumbled on.

The facts to remember are that ground owners have to make a profit if you want them to carry on. If they have any business sense, they will charge the price that makes them most profit. Usually that is the price that most shooters want to pay for the product received; otherwise the entries are too low and NO price will make the business work. (One ground has recently abandoned ESP shoots after the final nail in the coffin was to raise the price too high to try and make a profit. Opposite effect achieved). One thing is for sure, you need a decent footfall to make this work.

A few shooters assume that they are owed dirt cheap shooting. Some grounds feel they can charge very high prices. It is of course the middle ground, balanced with decent facilities and targets that attract the masses. Market forces dictate the trend, end of story.

This ^^^^^

And to illustrate the point, Worsley is [to my understanding, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong] the only shooting ground in the CPSA's area of North West of England to hold registered comps - and when you consider the sheer number of shooting grounds in the North West of England, that's a telling indictment about reg comps. Coniston, and not necessarily in the North West, and others, binned reg comps as they couldn't make them pay and got sick and tired of reading shooting forums where all they read was whingeing from those who had shot them when they did hold them.

 

[teepee1234]

I can't believe how long this thread has rumbled on.

The facts to remember are that ground owners have to make a profit if you want them to carry on. If they have any business sense, they will charge the price that makes them most profit. Usually that is the price that most shooters want to pay for the product received; otherwise the entries are too low and NO price will make the business work. (One ground has recently abandoned ESP shoots after the final nail in the coffin was to raise the price too high to try and make a profit. Opposite effect achieved). One thing is for sure, you need a decent footfall to make this work.

A few shooters assume that they are owed dirt cheap shooting. Some grounds feel they can charge very high prices. It is of course the middle ground, balanced with decent facilities and targets that attract the masses. Market forces dictate the trend, end of story.

...and that's a recurring theme from some people on here.  And it's getting boring.

By the way, Will, I really want to buy a good gearbox, but I can't afford it, so will you reduce your prices and sell it to me cheaper please?  :crazy:

 

[Shaun Hopkins]

There was a banner in a clothes shop that read: before criticising a man walk a mile in his shoes, then you'll be a long way away and have his shoes.

You been shopping in Oxfam again Hamster? That will explain the flares and old spice you keep turning up with :haha:

 

[timps]

Assuming you can afford £31, as an individual, you may well prefer SG "A" for a host of reasons, the girl behind the counter might have bigger tits

Mr Potter

I think this is a very valid point, do we know the name of SG"A"... I only ask for purely academic reasons, honest... :spiteful:

 

[Salopian]

Hilton Park Gun Club J11 M6 every fortnight 100 or 60 bird, 10 stands, good testing targets,   £20 membership per year, 60 bird £10, 100 bird £15.

Good mobile catering,  fabulous sandwiches. Down side,  no toilets, mark your own card, but it is practice or competition amongst mates.

Most people elect to shoot 100 @£15,  now this club has a working committee  of 12 working members who are at every shoot who get paid for their time, ground rent is paid, and they have about thirty Promatic traps AND they make a good profit.

 On the opposite side of the Motorway Services ( Hilton Park ) on alternative Sundays is The Wergs Gun Club similar setup  similar prices less staff so they pay prize money. Maybe that helps for you to decide what is a fair cost of clayshooting.

 

[Mr Potter]

Thirty quid a thousand for clays?!!!! You know nothing, nothing at all. If you are basing your argument on that then it is b******s!

Apologes wylye, I did say I suspected they were that price.  So how much cheaper than that are they then?

Potter

 

[Hamster]

Apologes wylye, I did say I suspected they were that price.  So how much cheaper than that are they then?

Potter

That was funny. :lol: